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 Wartys Dr. Who First Watch

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MrBill60

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:10 pm

@TBC wrote:
Just dropping in to see if Pumbaa is through the Tennant (who I actually really liked), Martha (found her barely tolerable), Donna (flat hated her), Davies (yawn), Dalek overload episodes yet. Nope? No problem. I'll just be over here, wearing a fez, eating custard and fish di...erm...fingers. What's that, Dr. Song? Oh. right...Spoilers. Well, see you when the Pandorica opens.  

That reminds me - one of the things I like about "Midnight" is that it is a "companion-lite" episode.
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davidalan

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:17 pm

True. But you can almost say even more than that about Blink!

Song? Yuck.
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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:24 pm

You take that back sir.
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vonnegut

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:16 pm

Don't worry, Boonian just has terrible taste in everything.
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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:21 am

yes that's why i plowed through fullmetal alchemist: brotherhood.

MAD MAD MAD MAD heart1  MAD MAD MAD MAD
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vonnegut

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:27 am

:p
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Warthawg1

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:03 pm

I watched the Lazarus experiment, and discovered how bad the previous two episodes really were.

Please, let me explain....

It had nothing to do with Lazarus experiment being stellar and comparing the previous two-to it, or
anything like that. LE seemed like standard fare Doctor Who.. there was some stuff in there we have
seen addressed before... things that reflect within the Doctor himself, like the dangers of living too 
long. We see again the dangers of messing with human DNA, and the law of unintended consequences
that kicks in when changes in what should be occur. We got to see Martha get dumped and
picked back up, and finally become the Doctor's official new companion, and that was all well and good..
it speaks to who Martha is in a way. (She's no Rose)

Here's the problem though... I fell asleep 3/4's of the way through the episode and bro, I ain't even mad.
I don't even think I'm going to go back and finish it as I sort of know how it would end anyway.

I blame that apathy on the Evolution of Daleks. It infected me with the spirit of "meh".
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davidalan

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:29 pm

The spirit of meh.

The antithesis of the face of bo.
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Warthawg1

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:27 am


I have been bored.... for
millions of years.
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vonnegut

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Sun Apr 29, 2018 11:03 am

I told you how bad those two episodes are.

But, 42 is much much better.

I'm going to rewatch Lazarus today and then I'll comment.
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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:15 pm

@Warthawg1 wrote:
I watched the Lazarus experiment, and discovered how bad the previous two episodes really were.

Please, let me explain....

It had nothing to do with Lazarus experiment being stellar and comparing the previous two-to it, or
anything like that. LE seemed like standard fare Doctor Who.. there was some stuff in there we have
seen addressed before... things that reflect within the Doctor himself, like the dangers of living too 
long. We see again the dangers of messing with human DNA, and the law of unintended consequences
that kicks in when changes in what should be occur. We got to see Martha get dumped and
picked back up, and finally become the Doctor's official new companion, and that was all well and good..
it speaks to who Martha is in a way. (She's no Rose)

Here's the problem though... I fell asleep 3/4's of the way through the episode and bro, I ain't even mad.
I don't even think I'm going to go back and finish it as I sort of know how it would end anyway.

I blame that apathy on the Evolution of Daleks. It infected me with the spirit of "meh".

Martha is definitely no Rose.

The Doctor has the Spirit of Meh about her.

I think he really was ready to just drop her off and go on. That he ended up changing his mind, doesn't take that away.

I really like Mark Gatiss, who plays Lazarus, so that's the perk of the episode for me.

I also like bringing in Martha's family. Companion Family tends to add some nuance and depth to the companions. Even though Martha's mom kind of sucks. Her sister and brother are cool.

But yes, this is a "standard fare" thing. I'm about to go ahead and rewatch "42," because it's been a while and during the course of this Emma's gotten kind of into the show and has been watching episodes with me. While she thought the Lazarus monster was scary, as soon as it's over she's like "Can we watch the next one?" <3
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davidalan

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:28 pm

42 is far superior to Lazarus.
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Warthawg1

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:55 pm

Lazurus wasn't terrible... just average and predictable, and I just didn't care to go back and watch the
last few minutes I slept through...

I'm guessing they had scorpiolazur just about defeated.. he came back for one last thrilling attack that
had Martha in danger... The Doctor had some unique way of defeating him where he returned to human
form... we learned again not to mess with human DNA, and there were some touching moments where
we now realize that Martha really is a full fledged companion.

I bet that about sums it up.
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vonnegut

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:00 pm

Yeah that's it.
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Warthawg1

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:04 pm

Thought so... hopefully 42 will re-engage me with something a little more fresh.
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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:11 pm

Some fun weirdness in 42.
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vonnegut

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:55 pm

I like 42 a lot and have from the first time I watched it, although many people "meh" it. We'll see what you think.

What comes afterwards, though, "Human Nature / Family of Blood" is not at ALL "regular."
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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:31 pm

42-----------great!

Human Nature/Family of Blood---------------great and great!

and then..................Blink!-----------------------------------------------------great great and great!
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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:50 pm

42

How could anyone be "meh" about that?!?

I thought that was really superb. 

It had some classic sci-fi themes... The distress signal that calls the ship in has been used so many times. The countdown to disaster has been used from Star Trek to Battlestar Galactica, and it's good stuff. It all lead to some really intense and thrilling moments. There's the obligatory commentary on
colonialism which can so often come off as heavy handed, but it doesn't here. There was solid work going on
in the background with this "Mr. Saxon" who may or not be a Torchwood thing, but his name has been mentioned before. Again, the Doctor refers to the indomitable British spirit as he mentions Dunkirk, reminiscent of another great episode where he mentioned how England survived the Blitz. Interesting as well is the use of the number 42, which is prominent in other sci-fi ventures.

There was also a departure from the smug in control Doctor that was refreshing. We got
to see a vulnerable and genuinely scared Doctor, but also that Doctor that has had enough
of losing people. The crew of the ship was fantastic.. there was a bit of an "Alien" vibe where
the crew felt so real and honest, and that played very well with Martha here.

If this isn't a highly rated episode in Doctor Who fandom, I take exception to that and say
bravo... bravo, Doctor Who.
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vonnegut

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:54 pm

I AM SO HAPPY RIGHT NOW.
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vonnegut

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Tue May 01, 2018 12:12 am

@Warthawg1 wrote:
42

How could anyone be "meh" about that?!?

I thought that was really superb. 

It had some classic sci-fi themes... The distress signal that calls the ship in has been used so many times. The countdown to disaster has been used from Star Trek to Battlestar Galactica, and it's good stuff. It all lead to some really intense and thrilling moments.

What I dig is something that has been done before, but it's done here really well-- the "in real time" episode. 42 minute episode, with a 42 minute countdown. It definitely makes the suspense work, because of the linear quality.

Quote :
There's the obligatory commentary on
colonialism which can so often come off as heavy handed, but it doesn't here. There was solid work going on
in the background with this "Mr. Saxon" who may or not be a Torchwood thing, but his name has been mentioned before.

I'm so glad you're picking up on the Saxon mentions.
No spoilers, though. I mean it isn't a spoiler to say I may have just had a mini-orgasm because we're talking about Mr. Saxon. Not at all.


Quote :


Again, the Doctor refers to the indomitable British spirit as he mentions Dunkirk, reminiscent of another great episode where he mentioned how England survived the Blitz. Interesting as well is the use of the number 42, which is prominent in other sci-fi ventures.

Life, the Universe, and Everything.

I teach only 3 sections this year because apparently math is way more important than history uh so I just have the same 3 blocks every day-- I have an inclusion (mixed special ed), a "regular," and an advanced/gifted.
My advanced block is on the same pacing as the other two blocks, so they are frequently bored. We're scheduled to spend five days on something that they understood in the first 30 minutes of the first day. So, being bored, they spend a lot of time asking me off-topic questions. The other day, I said (as I do), "so, any questions?" and one student raised their hand and said "Mrs. L, what is the meaning of life?" I replied instantly "42" and was met with a room of puzzled faces-- then one student started grinning at me. I pointed at her and said "You. You are now my favorite student. Okay, back to Probability."

Quote :

There was also a departure from the smug in control Doctor that was refreshing.
YES.

YES.

Part of what makes it special to me, is that the danger actually is real, and he really is afraid.
He can get so detached, feeling so invulnerable.
And sometimes that's good, because his detachment means that he has less fear and is able to see clearly when everyone else panics.
But too much of that can be bad, for him and for others around him.
Think about the past Christmas episode when his total lack of fear nearly got him destroyed-- he needed Donna to make him stop.
And getting caught up in the beauty of monsters can put others at risk through him not acting quickly or decisively enough.

Sometimes it's good to be scared.

And not to spoil-- part of the reason I comment so little is that it is impossible to separate what I know from the future episodes, from my analysis-- but I think this is the beginning of part of who 10 is.
9 was not scared for himself like EVER. To the point of recklessness. Because he was so broken and so sad. He was outright fey at times, dancing with death because he didn't want to commit suicide but he was just so sad that death would have been welcome.
10 is getting over that.
He wants to live.

Quote :

We got
to see a vulnerable and genuinely scared Doctor, but also that Doctor that has had enough
of losing people. The crew of the ship was fantastic.. there was a bit of an "Alien" vibe where
the crew felt so real and honest, and that played very well with Martha here.

The scene with Martha drifting away, and the Doctor saving her, that was really moving for me.
She ain't no Rose. But he still, in this episode, shows a type of tenderness towards her that he rarely does (Gridlock being a possible exception).

And yes, the crew was great, in that "isolated spaceship" way that the show does so well (Think "impossible planet / satan pit").

Quote :

If this isn't a highly rated episode in Doctor Who fandom, I take exception to that and say
bravo... bravo, Doctor Who.

:)

I really am glad you liked it. Like I'd said earlier, I loved this one from the start, when I was first-watching, and have grown to like it more in rewatches. BURN WITH ME. The Doctor, for once, being overcome and not being totally safe. The big reveal being a "WHY DIDN'T YOU SCAN FOR LIFE" tying in to the Doctor's natural care for even non-bipedal life forms.

Next up is a two-parter, and it's a big one. Set aside time to watch both episodes in a row.
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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Tue May 01, 2018 12:18 am

And, while Emma has been loosely following along in my co-watch of your first-watch, I'm not letting her watch the next two episodes.

It's just too fucking heavy.
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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Tue May 01, 2018 12:27 am

I was so back into it that I almost plowed ahead, but I knew it was a 2 part
thing.

Yes... one thing I want in a character is vulnerability. It is good that Tennant
has showed me that. I have despised actors for years because they always seem
to display a certain smugness about them that just irritated the **** out of me. 

There was a lot to like here. It brought me back.
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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Tue May 01, 2018 12:35 am

I love absolutely love 42. I love everyone and everything in it. It is almost a sleeper episode that can be overshadowed by the so-called grander episode, but 42 is in a sense symbolically what Dr Who is, especially if the "villain" didn't automatically strike the first blow, but came from human contamination, whether intentional or accidental or really here just unaware. These are not bad people by any stretch, but they're caught in a cultural complacency, where the universe is just a resource at the disposal of humanity. And the Dr going sun-crazy, well that's just a plus.

And then there's the dark dark double feature. They are one of my favorite episodes. But you're right to have you daughter skip that.


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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Tue May 01, 2018 12:39 am

@davidalan wrote:
42 is in a sense symbolically what Dr Who is, especially if the "villain" didn't automatically strike the first blow, but came from human contamination, whether intentional or accidental or really here just unaware.

The complexity of "villains" is a very, very Dr Who thing.
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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Thu May 03, 2018 10:08 pm

Onto Human Nature... 

Let's see what this hub-bub is about..
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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Thu May 03, 2018 10:16 pm

Ooooooh.

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vonnegut

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Thu May 03, 2018 10:17 pm

Sleep.... or rewatch Human Nature / Family of Blood because Warty's watching it right now.... Sleep.... or rewatch Human Nature / Family of Blood because Warty's watching it right now.... Damn....
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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Fri May 04, 2018 12:38 am

Wow... that is called elevating your game.

Human Nature and the Family of Blood

Defintely top tier, and this is the reason I keep watching. My comments here may seem random,
but I am processing...

First I want to talk about how well crafted these two were. How finely woven into the Whoniverse they
were made. 

Waking up and having it all been a dream. Another oft-played trope but executed flawlessy here.

"A girl in every fireplace"

He can dance. Oh I haven't forgotten. Everything done here fits so well with the history of the show. How
the Doctor has seen the indomitable spirit of the English at war. The consistency of the women that the
Doctor, even the Doctor as John Smith falls in love with. The simple beauty, the charm, the elegance, 
the courage... all consistent, and my gods how I love them as well. Those times seem so real, so perfect..
so wonderful. They are everything that love aspires to be, and those moments are done so well by
Tenant.

Then we insert a little racism and a little colonialism, but yet again not so heavy handed as it
so very often is... wonderful.

Enter Jojen Reed... the see-er from GOT. God, GRRM is such a hack! An unabashed hack. It's the same character! lol

Now I would like to speak to the realism of war. That scene as the boys at the school prepared for war. That's how it
really is. A bunch of kids... scared $***less, about to soil themselves with fear, and then the enemy comes, and as they fight through the tears they pull the trigger and are forever changed. They grow up quickly. How well that played towards the reality that will follow in 1914. 

Now to the wrath of the Doctor... his fury and fearful retribution unleashed. I don't pity them, but gods almighty his punishment was brutal... cold.. unwavering, and showing no mercy. None was deserved, and the Doctor issued out
a just end. I see his sometimes silly nature now in a different light, as it hides what is underneath. A defense mechanism of sorts. The metaphor here though with his anger is almost god-like. Having seen all he has seen... the
beginnings and the end.. the true nature of all that will ever be. I am in no position to judge his anger.. his wrath.
His POV is so much more than ours...

": We wanted to live forever. So the Doctor made sure we did." 
Holy hell.. did he ever..




The aftermath...

As the nurse points out, the Doctor brought this destruction with him. Had he not chosen them seemingly on a 
whim, then death and destruction would not have followed. Even though he is the bringer of destruction, he also
brings a measure of salvation with him. I'll point to a quote... "The God with the face of a man"


I'll end with some more quotes, and these episodes provoded oh
so many...

"I somehow think life would be so magical if stories like this were true"

"Mankind doesn't need warfare and bloodshed to prove itself. Everyday life can provide honor and valor. Let's hope that from now on this country can find its heroes in smaller places. In the most ordinary of deeds."


"He never raised his voice. That was the worst thing... the fury of the Time Lord... and then we discovered why. Why this Doctor, who had fought with gods and demons, why he had run away from us and hidden. He was being kind... "


Joan: Where is he... John Smith? 
Doctor: He's in here somewhere. 
Joan: Like a story... could you change back? 
Doctor: Yes. 
Joan: Will you? 
Doctor: No.
Damn...

Finally..

Tim: He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night and the storm in the heart of the sun. 
John:  Stop it. 
Tim: He's ancient and forever. He burns at the centre of time and can see the turn of the universe. 
John: Stop it, I said stop it! 
Tim: And... he's wonderful.
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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Fri May 04, 2018 1:00 am

@Warthawg1 wrote:
Wow... that is called elevating your game.

Upon reading this first sentence, I fist-pumped the air.

I KNEW you'd love these. I KNEW it.
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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Fri May 04, 2018 1:08 am

Upon reading the full post-- YES.

I just stayed up way too late to watch these again, in full, and felt as moved and as shaken as I did the first time I watched them.

And you hit so many nails on so many heads.

This isn't as transcendent as the Sandman First-Read, but this is SO GOOD and you are SO RIGHT on so many things.

"Empty Child" is when I grokked the Ninth Doctor. Just this once, everybody lives. The joy in that moment, the grace, only works because its implied context is the savage PAIN that he was in over all of the death he had seen AND THE DEATH HE HAD CAUSED. Couldn't save his entire fucking species or planet, but "give me a day like this" when everybody lives.

But these episodes? They are far from 10's best, but they are when I grokked the Tenth Doctor. And I finally really saw the man who could have murdered two species to end a war-- how he could have faced that decision, made that choice, and walked past it and continued to live. The cold and the dark of him. The fury of the time lord.

And then, as you say:
Joan: Like a story... could you change back?
Doctor: Yes.
Joan: Will you?
Doctor: No.

So much of 10, right there, in that exchange, right there. And he still feels for her. Still wants her to come with him. He didn't stop loving her when he changed back.

And he SAW what he could have. A life like that. A life of joy and growth and being settled with people you love.

But he still chooses himself. No hesitation. He knows how much happier he would be as a human with a regular human life.
But he doesn't even pause. "No." I won't change back. I'm the Doctor.

Arrrgh, there's so much MORE in these episodes and more I want to talk about, but it's really late at night.
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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Fri May 04, 2018 1:23 am

@Warthawg1 wrote:
Wow... that is called elevating your game.

Human Nature and the Family of Blood

Defintely top tier, and this is the reason I keep watching.

There will be slumps (although rarely as bad as what you've just been through with early S3). But there are always, always these highs, too. These are the reason I keep watching.

Quote :


My comments here may seem random,
but I am processing...

First I want to talk about how well crafted these two were. How finely woven into the Whoniverse they
were made. 

Waking up and having it all been a dream. Another oft-played trope but executed flawlessy here.

"A girl in every fireplace"

He can dance. Oh I haven't forgotten. Everything done here fits so well with the history of the show. How
the Doctor has seen the indomitable spirit of the English at war. The consistency of the women that the
Doctor, even the Doctor as John Smith falls in love with. The simple beauty, the charm, the elegance, 
the courage... all consistent, and my gods how I love them as well. Those times seem so real, so perfect..
so wonderful. They are everything that love aspires to be, and those moments are done so well by
Tenant.

How about that Rose mention? She's in his book, then "she seems to disappear" Sad Sad Sad

I *LOVE* the book. The sketches of Daleks, Cybermen, the clockwork robots, the Tardis, so cool.

Also, Joan Redfern is played exquisitely. The actress did SUCH an amazing job. There was a lot of good side-character acting in this, not least little baby Jojen, who brings a ridiculous amount of charisma for a child actor.

It is a certain amount of painful hilarity that human Doctor does fall in love... NOT with Martha. Even "forgetting" Rose doesn't make him love you, Martha. Sorry, lovely dishrag. He's just not that into you.

Quote :


Then we insert a little racism and a little colonialism, but yet again not so heavy handed as it
so very often is... wonderful.

Freema as Martha shines here. She portrays the seething "I just have to put up with this for another month" really well, while keeping her sense of self.

Quote :


Enter Jojen Reed... the see-er from GOT. God, GRRM is such a hack! An unabashed hack. It's the same character! lol

Now I would like to speak to the realism of war. That scene as the boys at the school prepared for war. That's how it
really is. A bunch of kids... scared $***less, about to soil themselves with fear, and then the enemy comes, and as they fight through the tears they pull the trigger and are forever changed. They grow up quickly. How well that played towards the reality that will follow in 1914. 

Yes. Fantastic weaving in of history into this very singularly human, personal storyline.

Quote :

Now to the wrath of the Doctor... his fury and fearful retribution unleashed. I don't pity them, but gods almighty his punishment was brutal... cold.. unwavering, and showing no mercy. None was deserved, and the Doctor issued out
a just end. I see his sometimes silly nature now in a different light, as it hides what is underneath. A defense mechanism of sorts. The metaphor here though with his anger is almost god-like. Having seen all he has seen... the
beginnings and the end.. the true nature of all that will ever be. I am in no position to judge his anger.. his wrath.
His POV is so much more than ours...

This paragraph, I CANNOT EVEN. Oh Warty. We'll have talks later.

But YES, even with 9 the silly nature often slipped to reveal the darkness and depth underneath.

With 10, we're just doubling down on that, and Tennant is PERFECTION in this role, with his thousand-year-old eyes.

But, are we REALLY in no position to judge his anger? If not us, then who?

I'm suddenly in mind of Donna. "Sometimes you need someone to make you stop."

Yes, he's over 900 years old. Yes, his POV is so much more than ours. Yes, that could make him a god.
But he isn't.

He's still a person. He can still make mistakes. And I LOVE, LOVE how Joan's last scene underlines that. People are dead because he was trying to be kind, because he made a choice that ended up being futile. He ended up not able to be kind to the Family of Blood. So all of those innocent people died for nothing. He can make mistakes.

And the real thing is... he knows that.
It eats at him. The power of a god, the wisdom of a person. Fallible.

Quote :

Joan: Where is he... John Smith? 
Doctor: He's in here somewhere. 
Joan: Like a story... could you change back? 
Doctor: Yes. 
Joan: Will you? 
Doctor: No.
Damn...


This will never stop affecting me on so many levels.
"Will you?"
"No."
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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Fri May 04, 2018 2:30 am

random comments out of sequence:

I loved loved loved the way the Dr dispatched with the family. The adults painfully. The daughter ironically mercifully. The son poetically. No gold pouring necessary.

The episodes themselves reminded me of invasion that WW1 villages or anyone might have experienced. With scarecrows as stand-ins for soldiers being mowed down. But then the tension when the school itself was flanked was quite high. It must have weird when Harry Lloyd as The Son was standing next to his former drinking buddies but eagerly ready to dispatch one or all of them and would have done so if Jojen or Thomas or Timothy (right?) hadn't used the Dr's watch to distract the Family.

As for the Family, they are such great villains. Seemingly curious and harmless on the accidental meeting with the student bootlegger and then BLAM! DEATH AND BODILY POSSESSION! So cool. I bet Harry Lloyd remembered that scream for the GOT's death scene! And then later the scarecrows abduct Mr. Grumpypants and then Martha's char chum (I can't recall her name) who was very convincing in pleading for her life. But she was even more convincing as the true leader of the Family and her dead stare look (and that of the Son) was just chilling.

Another great moment was the confrontation between The Balloon Girl and Timothy. Starting at the 50 second mark:



I love it when she calls him little boy when in this incarnation she's a shrimp herself. And then Timothy blasts her with the Dr's consciousness. Splendid. Also the Balloon Girl later blasting the Chief or whatever he's called. Well, he was in the way.

Joan is of course great. She has a normal woman's life of the time, and I'm sure the Dr's arrival as John Smith and then himself has some impact. I wonder if the greatest impact would be simply to love her children more. Her words to the Dr towards the end of the episode are so biting and true. The Dr steps into things because of his nature and because the universe needs him but there is never a clean outcome. Always unintended consequences. The best concept: Joan gets him to admit that he wouldn't have arrived there at all and did so only because he had to. And of course, basically: It was John Smith who was brave. The Dr. was just being a repetition of himself.

Martha is totally wonderful here. She does have to hide her intelligence to conduct herself according to cultural norms of the time, but she spots her friend's transformation and then acts promptly. She also saves most everyone at the party by some quick moves she probably learned from the Dr. She has a nice relationship with Timothy at the Balloon Girl's former house while "bombs" fall everywhere.

This is such a great double episode. And of course the Dr saves a baby. And then dreams of being a father.
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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Fri May 04, 2018 7:50 am

@vonnegut wrote:

This isn't as transcendent as the Sandman First-Read, but this is SO GOOD and you are SO RIGHT on so many things.

I doubt I will ever write anything else on a message board that will live up to what went down in the Sandman First-Read. Sandman set a pretty high bar for personal transcendence. It was the transcendent work itself and the time in my life that I read it that led to the result you read.  

It was the perfect storm.
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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Fri May 04, 2018 6:31 pm

That it was.

The fact that only Mo and I (and maybe Pi-o-my) got to read it is one of the greatest tragedies.

Anyway.

Next up, Blink.

Don't turn your back. Don't look away. And don't blink.
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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Fri May 04, 2018 8:55 pm

@vonnegut wrote:

And he SAW what he could have.  A life like that.  A life of joy and growth and being settled with people you love.

But he still chooses himself.  No hesitation.  He knows how much happier he would be as a human with a regular human life.
But he doesn't even pause.  "No."  I won't change back.  I'm the Doctor.  

He won't allow himself that "out". He has caused so much destruction, so much pain... There is too much guilt there, maybe some degree of self-loathing to allow himself to truly be happy. He's got to continue roaming the universe seeking atonement.
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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Fri May 04, 2018 8:59 pm

@Warthawg1 wrote:
@vonnegut wrote:

And he SAW what he could have.  A life like that.  A life of joy and growth and being settled with people you love.

But he still chooses himself.  No hesitation.  He knows how much happier he would be as a human with a regular human life.
But he doesn't even pause.  "No."  I won't change back.  I'm the Doctor.  

He won't allow himself that "out". He has caused so much destruction, so much pain... There is too much guilt there, maybe some degree of self-loathing to allow himself to truly be happy. He's got to continue roaming the universe seeking atonement.

True.

But, he also DOES have a certain glee in being clever sometimes.
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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Fri May 04, 2018 9:08 pm

@vonnegut wrote:
@Warthawg1 wrote:
Wow... that is called elevating your game.

Human Nature and the Family of Blood

Defintely top tier, and this is the reason I keep watching.

There will be slumps (although rarely as bad as what you've just been through with early S3).  But there are always, always these highs, too.  These are the reason I keep watching.

Quote :


My comments here may seem random,
but I am processing...

First I want to talk about how well crafted these two were. How finely woven into the Whoniverse they
were made. 

Waking up and having it all been a dream. Another oft-played trope but executed flawlessy here.

"A girl in every fireplace"

He can dance. Oh I haven't forgotten. Everything done here fits so well with the history of the show. How
the Doctor has seen the indomitable spirit of the English at war. The consistency of the women that the
Doctor, even the Doctor as John Smith falls in love with. The simple beauty, the charm, the elegance, 
the courage... all consistent, and my gods how I love them as well. Those times seem so real, so perfect..
so wonderful. They are everything that love aspires to be, and those moments are done so well by
Tenant.

How about that Rose mention?  She's in his book, then "she seems to disappear"  Sad Sad Sad


There were too many things to mention them all!


I *LOVE* the book.  The sketches of Daleks, Cybermen, the clockwork robots, the Tardis, so cool.  


Like this ^^^^^


Also, Joan Redfern is played exquisitely.  The actress did SUCH an amazing job.  There was a lot of good side-character acting in this, not least little baby Jojen, who brings a ridiculous amount of charisma for a child actor.

and this ^^^^^^, but I did at least mention that I fell in love with her as well. I noted early on the strength of the supporting actors. Those performances are often exquisite.



It is a certain amount of painful hilarity that human Doctor does fall in love... NOT with Martha.  Even "forgetting" Rose doesn't make him love you, Martha.  Sorry, lovely dishrag.  He's just not that into you.  


Yes... he doesn't like you that way. At least though I really felt
Martha this time. She has fallen so hard.




Quote :
Now to the wrath of the Doctor... his fury and fearful retribution unleashed. I don't pity them, but gods almighty his punishment was brutal... cold.. unwavering, and showing no mercy. None was deserved, and the Doctor issued out
a just end. I see his sometimes silly nature now in a different light, as it hides what is underneath. A defense mechanism of sorts. The metaphor here though with his anger is almost god-like. Having seen all he has seen... the
beginnings and the end.. the true nature of all that will ever be. I am in no position to judge his anger.. his wrath.
His POV is so much more than ours...

This paragraph, I CANNOT EVEN.  Oh Warty.  We'll have talks later.

But YES, even with 9 the silly nature often slipped to reveal the darkness and depth underneath.

With 10, we're just doubling down on that, and Tennant is PERFECTION in this role, with his thousand-year-old eyes.

But, are we REALLY in no position to judge his anger?  If not us, then who?

I'm suddenly in mind of Donna.  "Sometimes you need someone to make you stop."

Yes, he's over 900 years old. Yes, his POV is so much more than ours.  Yes, that could make him a god.
But he isn't.

He's still a person.  He can still make mistakes.  And I LOVE, LOVE how Joan's last scene underlines that.  People are dead because he was trying to be kind, because he made a choice that ended up being futile.  He ended up not able to be kind to the Family of Blood.  So all of those innocent people died for nothing.  He can make mistakes.  

And the real thing is... he knows that.  
It eats at him.  The power of a god, the wisdom of a person.  Fallible.  

Yes, but even when right he can sometimes seem overly cruel,
but I'll not judge him on this one.

 
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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Fri May 04, 2018 9:10 pm

BA... I pretty much agree with everything you wrote!
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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Fri May 04, 2018 9:16 pm

Are you going to watch Blink tonight?
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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Fri May 04, 2018 11:15 pm

@vonnegut wrote:
That it was.

The fact that only Mo and I (and maybe Pi-o-my) got to read it is one of the greatest tragedies.


Maybe, but what it was is not changed by the number of people that saw it.
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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Fri May 04, 2018 11:47 pm

@vonnegut wrote:
Are you going to watch Blink tonight?

Yes... just finished it...


Time travel is very difficult. So many paradoxes.. so many places to trip
up.

Now I am not a complex guy.. it's in my will that "Simple Man"
by Lynyrd Skynyrd be played at my funeral. As Forrest Gump said.. 
"I may not be a smart man, but I know what love is", and I loved
the complex tapestry that was woven without blemish in that episode.

It was absolutely, within it's under an hour lifespan, one of the finest crafted time tales I have ever seen. It must be recorded as one of the best, and in a different way than many of the other "bests" this show
has offered. This was just crafted so elegantly. As I stated earlier, time travel can trip over itself, but in this episode of Doctor Who it was handled as deftly as a heart surgeon wields his scapel. The interaction
with the video and the messages from 1969 was brilliant. It even answers what little can be questioned with wibbly wobbly and sometimes you don't know the answer, "and that's okay". 

Sally Shipton... Sally Sparrow... Sally Wainwright... sit and smoke on those three Sally's for a bit... I'll not say more at this time.

God bless... brilliant.

Now onto some things beautiful

Don't blink. Blink and you're dead. They are fast. Faster than you can believe. Don't turn your back. Don't look away. And don't blink. Good Luck."


I've got a stone angel on my deck outside.. things will never be the same.


"It's happy for deep people" ... yeah, in it's own way.


and finally...

"It's the same rain..."
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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Fri May 04, 2018 11:48 pm

@vonnegut wrote:
Are you going to watch Blink tonight?

Apparently, yes
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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Sat May 05, 2018 9:30 am

OMG just reading "It's the same rain" gives me goosebumps.

I still prefer Midnight (and, for that matter, Heaven Sent), but it's not accidental that this is usually considered the best episode of Doctor Who.

Now you know why we've all been geeking out over here waiting for you to get to this one.

And why I had a T-shirt printed that just says "The Angels Have the Phone Box." I wear it in public as a cool-person-detector. Most people look at it puzzled, but every once in a while someone will see it and grin at me, and then we have a mutual "you're cool" nod before moving on with our lives.
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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Sat May 05, 2018 9:31 am

By the way, this is your third Moffatt-written episode.  The first being "Empty Child / Doctor Dances," the second being "Girl in the Fireplace."

All this to say that it's no wonder that Moffatt was put in charge of the show after S4 when Davies stepped down.
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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Sat May 05, 2018 9:33 am

@Nessess wrote:
Off the top of my head I think I would rank my top 5 episodes as follows:

1) The Library
2) Blink
3) The Girl in the Fireplace
4) The Empty Child
5) The Girl Who Waited

Looking back at lists, the top four of Ness's top five were all written by Moffatt.
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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Sat May 05, 2018 9:36 am

@vonnegut wrote:
If I were to make a top five list...

Nope, a top ten list...

Off the top of my head, it would probably be:

1) Heaven Sent
2) End of Time Part 1/2
3) Midnight
4) Silence in the Library / Forest of the Dead
5) Vincent and the Doctor
6) Empty Child / Doctor Dances
7) Blink
8 ) Utopia / Sound of Drums / Last of the Time Lords
9) Turn Left
10) Husbands of River Song

But that might change upon rewatching.

While I love Moffatt as well, I'm also way into Davies.
Writers for my list:

1) Moffatt
2) Davies
3) Davies
4) Moffatt
5) Some guy named Richard Curtis
6) Moffatt
7) Moffatt
8 ) Davies
9) Davies
10) Moffatt
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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Sat May 05, 2018 9:42 am

As I said that might change upon re-watching...
Every time I make a list, I REALLY want to put Human Nature / Family of Blood on there. As well as Impossible Planet / Satan Pit. Those are both such incredibly fucking solid two-parters.
But all the others on the list are so damn good I can't bump anything off of it.

Bit of trivia, by the way-- "42" that you recently watched, was written by Chris Chibnall, his first for the show. He does some more over the course of the rest of the seasons. Moffatt has just finished his last season (S10) and is stepping down now, and Chris Chibnall is taking over.

I'm a little skeptical because while Chibnall's episodes are not bad, they don't have the magic of so many of Davies' and Moffatt's episodes.
However, (I'm likely disagreeing strongly with TBC here) I think Moffatt is much better as a single-ep writer than a show-runner.
Maybe it will be the opposite with Chibnall. Fingers crossed.
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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Sat May 05, 2018 4:15 pm

Blink---magical

Why is all of it so great? Because all of it is.

Some things I love about it, in a wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey way:

Sally Sparrow. She has kindness and curiosity, resolve and pluck. She is everything. She's always needed another episode.

The Weeping Angels. Never in the history of Dr Who has a villain provided such visual creepiness. I don't mean how they look, although if you look at them at the right time you can't help but scream, I mean when you see them. There in the garden. There in the hallway. There in the window. There on the building across the street. A quiet evil. Which will lead me to one or two difficulties (not complaints) I have with the episode and which I'll discuss at the end.

Kathy Nightingale. This could be just a throwaway role but there's heart in her. And when we meet her she's kind of goofy and caught up in modern life but when she's "sent back in the past" you could almost say that the Weeping Angels have done her a favor???? In her letter to Sally she speaks with great heart. She has found love and has had a family. The scene with her in the past and the guy she was lucky to have met (because she could have met Trump) was just so charming that I wish somewhere in visual life there was more of them. But Sally in the present is naturally sad. She is sad how all of us are sad when someone disappears from our lives. We stay with her because the story does.

Larry Nightingale. What a weirdo. Initially you don't think his role is going anywhere. But it does. He is symbolically important in that our first view of him is naked (or almost because of tv rules) but isn't that what happens to people not just when they're born but when they're reborn in a sense? Kathy has a new life. Sally and Larry have a new life together. Anyway, in terms of the episode Larry jumps out of his goofiness and without him Sally and he don't survive the present. Plus!---he represents fandom. Another someone who says: I have a tee-shirt that says that.

Malcolm Wainwright. A small part but a good one. He for the most part communicates what he's told. But there's also a part of him that either instinctively or because his grandmother Kathy has told him tells him not not not to linger at that house. For awhile I just thought okay he left. But I now believe he was told to stay there no longer than absolutely necessary. The actor himself ironically plays a creepy dual role on Midsomer Murders but in episodes that are several years apart.

Billy Shipton. OMG he is the saddest element of the story, and why you can't really get entirely caught up in the notion that the Weeping Angels might be doing you a favor, because unlike Kathy I think Billy was solid in the present and felt as though he had a chance with Sally Sparrow and all of his life from his new present to the old present was a mission to see her again, part of which was of his own desire but also as an agent of the Dr and Martha. He created the Sally Sparrow Easter Egg dvd collection and essentially handed them off to Larry Wainwright. The scene with Billy and Sally in the nursing home. Yes, it's the same rain! So much sadness in such a short scene. The scene suggests that Sally stayed with Billy until the end and this time saw him not only reappear but disappear again. The actor who plays older Billy was also in the UK series Being Human. Yes he played a werewolf but was way more important than that.

The Dr and Martha. Well they're fun in their dvd moments. The Dr trying to explain time. He's just so how can I explain this to humans so that they're understand. Hilarious. And Martha barging in and saying I've had to support us! Also hilarious because the Dr can't get a paying job anywhere perhaps outside of stand up comedy.

Another thing the episode is great at is the change in pace between the slower discovery moments and the frantic save your life moments and then the brief we're in a rut because the Dr hasn't appeared moment. But the Dr does and both Sally and Larry have their fangirl and fanboy moment that you know we sort of share. Eta: I forgot about the coolest part where Larry's Angel is pointing at the basement light bulb and trying to turn it off. Apparently the Angel can't just smash it because of being looked at and the other Angels don't move because of being looked at by Sally and Larry, plus, I guess, The Tardis is blocking some of the view of one another. Of course it's when the Tardis vanishes that the Angels are taken by surprise and see one another and freeze freeze freeze. But does this change if the lightbulb goes out? If there's darkness again? Or if once done, the Angels always remain frozen? Lots of complexity within an hour. Worse than a relationship conversation.
hug hug4 console hair

Okay the difficulties:

1) This difficulty I think I resolved and it's the same with all time travel in that how new past actions impact on the present. Here the past doesn't impact the present all that much at all (outside of course creating a new Wainwright dynasty and easter eggs for Sally's dvds) as it loops back into it. I think the episode successfully shows this with the immediacy of Malcolm's knock on the door right after Kathy disappears, and Sally seeing Billy in the nursing home. So this version of time travel is in fact a time loop. In a sense, Sally and Kathy being in the house and Kathy being swept into the past and then her grandson appearing at the door is always happening because it happened once. But for awhile where this problem resurfaces is where the Dr and Martha are sent back to their spot in time. Why don't they grow old? Well, because the Tardis is able to be sent to them. Another loop is created. Also it's a nice visual that the Weeping Angels are trapped in something of a loop as well, always looking at one another, in perpetuity.

2) Where people are swept back into time. Kathy is sent back not only far back in time but to some faraway place. I get why symbolically, but why there physically. Billy meanwhile is swept back not only in a more urban setting but right where the Dr and Martha are seemingly waiting for him. Well this all perplexing. Initially, I thought where the Angels attacked determined where and when the person was sent to, and this still may be the case. The Dr and Martha, if I understand things correctly, are dispatched at the house, whereas Billy is dispatched at or near the police station where the Tardis was taken by the police (who hopefully were traveling in a group because a solo officer would have been in trouble). I think Billy ends up in the time and location of the Dr and Martha because of Billy's proximity to the Tardis. Meanwhile the area is unlit enough so that the Weeping Angels aren't spotted so Billy can be eliminated, but of course their doing this fits right into the time loop puzzle of the Dr and Martha returning to the present only to encounter Sally and Larry in their later present. Ironic. Jeez. And I thought Dunkirk was difficult to piece apart!

eta: I think I'm wrong as to where the Tardis was found by the police. The Dr and Martha run past Sally and Larry and the Sparrow Nightingale bookshop, presumably on their way to encounter the Angels??? So basically the Tardis was simply towed at the owner's expense.

etaeta: Yep Sally offers a couple of writer lines in the basement. There she says after she found the key to the Tardis she led the Angels to where the Tardis was being stored and they took it? That seems logistically problematic. Maybe they turned off all the streetlamps a la Dumbledore.


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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Sat May 05, 2018 4:23 pm

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