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vonnegut

vonnegut


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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptySat May 19, 2018 4:44 pm

Are you watching it tonight???
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vonnegut

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptySat May 19, 2018 5:26 pm

davidalan wrote:

And speaking of River Song and her people, I disagree that that the happy ending is a bad ending. One it fits with the theme of this episode's theme of saving people by storing them in an ideal state. For another, the dr saving these people as people in a way that the dr can is something he "learned" from Donna, and for him to do anything else would run contrary to the Dr Donna experience. Finally I would do anything for Anita. She can be saved. She's with her friends.

I completely disagree with you. Maybe in the context of this episode, it's not so bad, but hindsight makes me HATE this.
Maybe I'm just biased against Moffat's "Happy Ever After" Dead-But-Not-Really! endings because it robs the emotional power of the death.

To put it in Sandman terms for Warty, it would be like Morpheus popping back up at his funeral like "Oh, everything got magically reversed, I'm back and it's all okay now!"
While Matthew would have been pleased, it would have made every emotion about the last book completely pointless.

It's a cheat and it's bullshit story-telling.

THAT ASIDE, even if we're going to take River (RIVER!) and stuff her consciousness into some digital pseudo-heaven (For what point, even? Do you think she's scared of death? Do you think she wouldn't rather go boldly into whatever mysteries lie beyond instead of digital pseudo-heaven? It's just weird), THEN we just throw her "friends" at her as "it's all okay here, she has her buddies." But those are not even her friends, they are just a pack of randos that she JUST MET to go on an expedition with.
Can we not think of like QUITE A FEW other people that River would prefer spending Stepford Eternal Afterlife with?

Meh. Firm, resounding MEH.

Quote :


As for your comments regarding the Dr's unbiased regard towards the preservation of all lifeforms, I disagree not with your opinion of the Dr per se, but with the concept that the Dr is unbiased. By choosing all lifeforms, he invariably chooses evil malevolent ones over the "better" life forms which those evil malevolent ones inevitably and gleefully kill. This part of the Dr's psychology truly borders on ptsd coupled with massive delusion. Basically he is projecting that someone out there should have spared the Timelord Race, and because someone didn't, he is perpetuating the loop of annihilation and grief. I find this component of the Dr's personality interesting, but when he boasts to his comrades that villains who have no compunction in murdering masses of lowly humans for instance should be spared the right of special existence, I just cringe. What is the Dr? The guardian of evolutionary intent? If that's the case, he should quit palling around with humans, because in the Dr's universe, humans are easy targets of the forces of evil.

I completely disagree with you :p

For one thing, you call humans "the easy targets of the forces of evil"?!?!?!

Which species are the ones inevitably and gleefully killing? Because you can damn sure count humans among them.
How many episodes do we REALLY need underlining that point?

If the Doctor was to just pick and choose between "murdering" species and "nice peaceful" species, he would have let humanity get destroyed a dozen times over, instead of saving their flawed, broken little asses.

However, he does NOT allow their flawed, broken little asses to be wiped out. Because he sees the good in "monsters." He is at least willing to LISTEN to the monsters and understand them. Because for every murderous, stupid, evil human, there is a Rose, a Donna-- and if humans can be like that, can other species not be like that?

Now, when he is SURE that there is no redemption, he is merciless-- but the only species I can think of offhand that he is like that with-- the Daleks. And that is because they are literally creatures of pure insane destruction whose entire reason of being is to wipe out all other life.
He's not coddling them.

But, when it comes to a species that he doesn't understand yet, he's DEFINITELY not going to just jump right to "we should kill them all because they hurt some humans!" any more than he's going to want to kill all humans in response to the species that HUMANS hurt. Instead, he is going to listen to them, and try to understand them, so that he can formulate a response.

For another thing, the vashta nerada as EVIL? They aren't evil. They are carnivores. As well call humans evil for eating cows. They're sitting in this planet (they didn't CHOOSE to come there, they were hatched there), hungry as shit, doing what comes naturally to them.
Are they dangerous to humans, yes. But danger to humans doesn't automatically equate EVIL.
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Warthawg1

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptySat May 19, 2018 9:24 pm

vonnegut wrote:
Are you watching it tonight???

Gonna try if all of these people around here will go
to bed and leave me alone.
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vonnegut

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptySat May 19, 2018 9:33 pm

GO THE FUCK TO BED, PEOPLE. SLEEP. YOU NEED YOUR SLEEP.

Omg I'm totally staying up late to see if you were able to watch.

MIDNIGHT.
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Warthawg1

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptySat May 19, 2018 11:29 pm

"What could possibly go wrong?"

I'll tell you what could go wrong... creepy ass
possessed blonde chick, that's what.

On top of that, no one in the history of forever would ride on that thing with music videos, cartoons, and light shows going on at the same time, but I digress. Of course though there was the very obvious phallic symbol present as The Doctor shut all that nonsense down. That is always worth a laugh.

Holly poop Rose is on the telly!

When Sky turned around... her shadow on the wall in front of her... holy crap that was terrifying.. or so I though.. until she finished turning around and then I was introduced to another level of terrifying. It didn't help that the movie The Exorcist scared the living shiznit out of me when I was a kid, because this eppy gave off that same vibe.

Some fascinating commentary there about how The Doctor is almost gleeful about Ms. Crazypants... and he so often is over these things. Also, the rush to judgement over what we don't understand.

In the end though they were right... shoulda thrown her out.

The Doctor showed his wee bit of prejudice against humans. He's very content in his own cleverness and while he may need a Donna Noble to tell him "no" every once in awhile... he clearly admires his own superiority. Yet here in the end he wasn't even the hero. He really had no answers. Maybe this will humble The Doctor a bit.

Some things worked well here... the villain that at first was heard but unseen, the build up of tension, and then how utterly creepy and scary... all by just repeating what everyone was saying. That totally worked.

This episode triggered a more basic emotion here than the previous, and def one of the best this season. The build up of tension was fantastical. I thought the setting was a fantastic way to not only create that tension, but to isolate The Doctor. The characters
were a bit sterotypical, but again they worked. They were exactly the wide range of folk
you expect on public transportation. The paranoia.. the panic, the finger pointing.. all that
all that happens when you lock random people up in a terrifying situation reminded me
"24 Hours" from Sandman, and that of course brought me much joy.

 S4 is definitely in gear although I expect a slight drop before the usually solid ending episodes.
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vonnegut

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptySat May 19, 2018 11:50 pm

I'm watching the next ep, "Turn Left" right now, and I can tell you... there is no drop.

There will be no drop for quite a while. You are in for it now.
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Warthawg1

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptySat May 19, 2018 11:53 pm

Nothing to add about Midnight?
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vonnegut

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptySun May 20, 2018 12:29 am

Oh, I have a LOT to add about Midnight.

Getting there now.
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vonnegut

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptySun May 20, 2018 1:05 am

Midnight.

Let me stress again-- Boonian, you are Wrong.

Because what is REALLY the monster here?

Like I said... it's humans.

We are the monster.

And the real beauty in this episode is the hostess.

She INTRODUCES the idea of throwing out Sky. She has murder in her heart. She is a killer. But in the end, she sacrifices her own life for the others.

What is Evil?

And at the end... the hostess... what was her name? "I don't know."

"Midnight" has me shook. Because of that moment. What was her name?

This is a "fuck humans" episode. We never even know what the monster is, or what it wants. The Doctor ends up with full evacuation. "Let them build a Leisure Palace somewhere else. Let this world keep turning under an extonic star."

All we know for sure is that the Doctor was really, really scared. He isn't often really, really scared. And the thing is, he wasn't afraid of the Monster.

He was afraid of us.

For good fucking reason. How quickly did these amiable, regular people turn to murder?

I've had too much wine to make a good analysis post, but think of Deedee and Jethro, the moral compasses of this episode, and how they reacted when the Doctor was about to be murdered.

Horror, and logic, but they still stood by to watch it happen.

Because humans are monsters. Humans are savage.

And the Doctor said, whatever you want, if it's life or consciousness or form or breath, you can have it, you don't have to steal it, and I'll help you.

And he would.

Because humans are a shit show. Killing humans isn't inherently evil.

I've said what I want to say, I think.
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Warthawg1

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptySun May 20, 2018 11:35 am

I didn't have quite the same reaction. Mob mentality combined with fear can lead humans to
do terrible things, but in the end the monster was actually.... a monster. It wanted to kill The
Doctor because he was the only one who might possibly stop it after having convinved everyone
that Sky had come back to them. In the end it was also a human that engaged in self-sacrifice
for the good of others.

Yes before the end the humans were acting out some of humans bad traits, but they were led
down that path by a monster that was very good at manipulating emotion. That was even
talked about in the dialogue as they mentioned how the monster was working.. turning one
against the other, etc.
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davidalan

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptySun May 20, 2018 8:34 pm

Midnight---marvelous. Lesley Sharpe as Sky is especially good. LS is in a lot of British TV but I think this is truly one of her better roles. The episode itself is like a one-act play where the actors project the events and the terror they inspire. That's a reason why LS's performance is vital.

As for the previous Blink vs Midnight, one of the reasons I like Blink more is that every character has solidity and appeal. I don't find this in Midnight. I think most of the fellow travelers are too ordinary. But they almost have to be for the sake of the story. But I just couldn't get behind them as much as the people in Blink. One exception might be the woman who sacrificed herself, I think her acting was good, but her character development to the point of self-sacrifice always confuses me. Is it the loyal civil service? I just don't see any kind of foundation between the Dr and her that would have led to this action. Part of me thinks it's the need of the plot, but she is an interesting character and I'm going to think that she would have done this for anyone, and not just the Dr. One thing the Dr should do in the future though is to hand out questionnaires to his fellow passengers ahead of time.

As for previous posts, of course Humans can be evil, but in the context of Dr Who not all Humans are, whereas there are many Dr Who enemies whose entire race is genocidal, and The Dr's choice in wasting time to support or encourage them over a population who the Dr himself typically befriends and makes his companions is absolutely ridiculous. When the Humans are uniformly genocidal, then I would say that the Dr would be delusional in not dispatching them as well, but the show creates the dilemma of differences in Humans but not so much in differences in Aliens. Many alien races are stereotyped into monolithic thought purpose and action without any chance of retraction. Think of the 42 Humans vs the Sontarans. Yes those humans were greedy and short-sighted, but I wouldn't describe them as inherently evil. The Sontarans, as presented, were evil. The Dr. doing anything to attempt to spare the Sontarans, while humans who the show presented as good were dying, was an absolute waste of time. The Dr trying to work out a solution on the 42 ship was time well spent because those people could be convinced that they were wrong. And of course those the Dr historically helps in this way don't have to be humans at all. I can't remember the name of the episode in the way back days, but when Tom Baker was the Dr, he worked against a vile bunch of humans in favor of an alien race who those humans were torturing and killing. I guess my point is that when there are clear choices, the Dr needs to suck it up. If he wants to be an interstellar diplomat or a proponent of an interstellar peace philosophy or religion then he should do so. But the Dr of course is messy and radiates in practically every move unintended consequences. So that effort would never succeed. Plus I like him as a mess. But I find his everyone deserves enlightenment in the framework of time itself, and in the process almost automatically sacrificing practical lives for a totally impractical ideal, impossible. Maybe the show believes in this paradox. I find it, outside of an exploration of the Dr's psychological makeup, a weakness, and a cringeable one at that. I guess even my heroes are going drive me crazy sometimes. I guess if I join the Sontarans I wouldn't have to worry about that. Until they ditched me that is...
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vonnegut

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptySun May 20, 2018 9:12 pm

Warthawg1 wrote:
I didn't have quite the same reaction. Mob mentality combined with fear can lead humans to
do terrible things, but in the end the monster was actually.... a monster. It wanted to kill The
Doctor because he was the only one who might possibly stop it after having convinved everyone
that Sky had come back to them. In the end it was also a human that engaged in self-sacrifice
for the good of others.

Yes before the end the humans were acting out some of humans bad traits, but they were led
down that path by a monster that was very good at manipulating emotion. That was even
talked about in the dialogue as they mentioned how the monster was working.. turning one
against the other, etc.

See, maybe I'm interpreting it differently. The monster was imitating-- it was exhibiting learned behavior throughout the episode, from imitating the pattern of knocks, mimicking the voices, even throwing out the doctor was originally the hostess's idea (when the monster had Sky). I see the Midnight Monster as a mirror.

And while the Doctor often seems to be close to "FUCK humans, I'm never dealing with ya'll again," the look that he gave the wife when it was all over and she goes "I said it was her all along" is probably the closest he's ever been.

When the Doctor is convincing them to not throw out Sky, and says "This is brand new species! What do you amount to?"

He's so disappointed.

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vonnegut

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptySun May 20, 2018 9:30 pm

davidalan wrote:
Midnight---marvelous. Lesley Sharpe as Sky is especially good. LS is in a lot of British TV but I think this is truly one of her better roles. The episode itself is like a one-act play where the actors project the events and the terror they inspire. That's a reason why LS's performance is vital.

When I was watching this last night, even Jason remarked that the casting was really good, particularly Sky.

Quote :

As for the previous Blink vs Midnight, one of the reasons I like Blink more is that every character has solidity and appeal. I don't find this in Midnight. I think most of the fellow travelers are too ordinary. But they almost have to be for the sake of the story. But I just couldn't get behind them as much as the people in Blink. One exception might be the woman who sacrificed herself, I think her acting was good, but her character development to the point of self-sacrifice always confuses me. Is it the loyal civil service? I just don't see any kind of foundation between the Dr and her that would have led to this action. Part of me thinks it's the need of the plot, but she is an interesting character and I'm going to think that she would have done this for anyone, and not just the Dr. One thing the Dr should do in the future though is to hand out questionnaires to his fellow passengers ahead of time.

See, I enjoy these characters more than in Blink. They are more realistic. I fucking LOVE Dee Dee (lost moon of poosh!) and how she struggles to reason shit out. And all of their flaws are so normal. Sullen Jethro, who is nevertheless probably showing the most decency of anyone onboard when shit goes south, and manages to keep a sense of humor. The husband/wife who are such a nice couple until they are stressed and afraid.
And the hostess, whose name we never learn (probably my favorite part of the episode is at the end when the Doctor asks if anyone knew her name, and they all get these looks on their faces when they realize that they don't).
She's the one who starts all the shit with proposing to throw out Sky, but in the end she saves them all. And I think the latter is just a case of something that we don't see too often with humans, but often enough-- sudden fits of heroic courage. Someone running into a burning building to save a child. She barely stopped to think, she just did it. We do that kind of thing sometimes.

I think it's a demonstration of WHY the Doctor doesn't just wash his hands of us. Because after being such a disappointment in general, someone suddenly isn't.

Quote :

As for previous posts, of course Humans can be evil, but in the context of Dr Who not all Humans are, whereas there are many Dr Who enemies whose entire race is genocidal, and The Dr's choice in wasting time to support or encourage them over a population who the Dr himself typically befriends and makes his companions is absolutely ridiculous.

I don't think that's the case, though. If the entire race is genocidal (think Daleks), the Doctor will go over and beyond what is needed to stop them (including killing HIS ENTIRE OWN SPECIES). He's not supporting or encouraging them.

He just isn't in a hurry to murder something unless he HAS to. He wants to figure out why it's doing what it's doing.
And yes, I do think it's because he has so much blood on his hands. He thinks twice. I love that about him.

Quote :


When the Humans are uniformly genocidal, then I would say that the Dr would be delusional in not dispatching them as well, but the show creates the dilemma of differences in Humans but not so much in differences in Aliens. Many alien races are stereotyped into monolithic thought purpose and action without any chance of retraction. Think of the 42 Humans vs the Sontarans. Yes those humans were greedy and short-sighted, but I wouldn't describe them as inherently evil. The Sontarans, as presented, were evil. The Dr. doing anything to attempt to spare the Sontarans, while humans who the show presented as good were dying, was an absolute waste of time. The Dr trying to work out a solution on the 42 ship was time well spent because those people could be convinced that they were wrong.

No to be a spoiler, but you know as well as I do that the Sontarans are not inherently evil or unredeemable. One of my favorite characters later on is a Sontaran. They are like humans-- some are shit, some are great. They have a warlike culture. But for fuck's sake, so do WE.

I really think that the issue is that you're being biased towards humans :p The Doctor, while fond of humans, isn't going to automatically take their side in every disagreement or conflict.
He's at least going to take two seconds to see both sides before making a decision, even (or especially), if that means talking to the other species and trying to find out what it really wants and if a resolution can be found that isn't slaughter.

Quote :
And of course those the Dr historically helps in this way don't have to be humans at all. I can't remember the name of the episode in the way back days, but when Tom Baker was the Dr, he worked against a vile bunch of humans in favor of an alien race who those humans were torturing and killing. I guess my point is that when there are clear choices, the Dr needs to suck it up. If he wants to be an interstellar diplomat or a proponent of an interstellar peace philosophy or religion then he should do so. But the Dr of course is messy and radiates in practically every move unintended consequences. So that effort would never succeed. Plus I like him as a mess. But I find his everyone deserves enlightenment in the framework of time itself, and in the process almost automatically sacrificing practical lives for a totally impractical ideal, impossible. Maybe the show believes in this paradox. I find it, outside of an exploration of the Dr's psychological makeup, a weakness, and a cringeable one at that. I guess even my heroes are going drive me crazy sometimes. I guess if I join the Sontarans I wouldn't have to worry about that. Until they ditched me that is...

But the Doctor doesn't want to be an interstellar diplomat. That's why he stole a Tardis and ran away.
He's just being who he is. He's making decisions based on what he knows. He's trying to help-- and not just humans. He's trying to help everyone, as much as he can. He's the Doctor-- first do no harm.

But keep in mind, he does not have a RESPONSIBILITY to save anyone. He doesn't even get paid for this shit. So being critical that he doesn't protect ENOUGH or quickly enough, is kind of absurd in my view. Sometimes he's going to save lives. Sometimes he isn't. He's doing the best he fucking can :p


Oh, and the Sontarans wouldn't ditch you. They would kill you on the field of battle for the glory of the Sontaran Empire.
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vonnegut

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptyMon May 21, 2018 8:39 pm

Turn Left?

Tonight?
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Warthawg1

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptyMon May 21, 2018 9:05 pm

Done

When I mentioned a lull, I thought there would be a stand alone episode before a two part finale. A friend of mine however told me that Left Turn was actually the beginning of a 3 parter to end the season.

I'm not usually a fan of episodes where The Doctor plays a minor role, but this was probably about the best of those. Well acted by Tate and it's always nice seeing gramps. 

It's always interesting seeing the "what if" scenario in time travel, and the show went out of the way painting the bleakest of alternatives for planet Earth if he wasn't around. Of note is that The Doctor without a companion ends up dead, but is it a Doctor without a Donna.. specifically.

Now I don't know where this will go, but the concept of space beetles and feeding off of time breaches and such is a bit confusing. Rose was around to push Donna where she needed to go, but the fact she said "Bad Wolf" makes me wonder if this is alternate universe Rose of now or if it was heart of Tardis eating Rose who dropped by everywhere to leave her Bad Wolf clues. I mean she could have just said "Rose"... 

Anyway.... Donna selfishly throws herself in front of a bus to get back to the alternate universe/existence she knows best... but now this other one exists; my question is which one does she really end up in... in the world of alternate timelines, both equally exist. Hell... 3 might exist now... It's raining time lines up in here!
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vonnegut

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptyMon May 21, 2018 9:06 pm

Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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vonnegut

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptyMon May 21, 2018 9:07 pm

Will speculate on your speculations after I get ready for work tomorrow and pour a glass of wine.
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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptyMon May 21, 2018 9:21 pm

Such a good episode. It's sort of like Donna taking the Midnight train. The world turns against her too! Hell, the world turns against everyone!

wine
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vonnegut

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptyMon May 21, 2018 10:33 pm

Okay, for Turn Left--

Yes, it is nice seeing Wilf <3 I think this is my favorite episode for him other than the last one he's in.

He has so much heart.

The chilling "labor camps" exchange, though, holy shit.

And yes... this is the world of the Doctor without Donna, where he doesn't have someone to make him stop. No one around to smack some sense into him when he's gone off the rails.
And a Donna without the Doctor... and her bleak life and shitty mom and feeling worthless all the time.

Plus all of the catastrophe. I like the twists on each earth-set episode since Donna came on scene in that Christmas special... the Royal Hope hospital kills off Martha AND Sarah Jane (who took the Doctor's place in investigating and saving the day, though being human she doesn't survive the radiation blast), London incinerated when the Titanic hits, so the Adipose instead target America and succeed, the Sontarans being stopped by the Torchwood team who die in the meantime except for Jack who can't die.***

As far as the alternate timelines, my take on it is this--
When she died by jumping in front of a bus, that version of Donna (the one who never met the Doctor) did in fact die. But, because that action caused her to turn left, that version also winked out of existence-- the whole timeline ceased to exist, never happened, erased.
Donna turned left so we're back to single timeline, she's back where she started before the beetle got on her back.
But she remembers the Bad Wolf.

Now, I think that IS actually Rose, although when the timeline ceases to exist, that version of Rose would as well. (Maybe? None of this is spoilers because I haven't actually watched the finale of this season for a long time and I'm hazy on the details)
I think she said "Bad Wolf" as a kind of password-- anyone could say Rose, but "Bad Wolf" means the Doctor KNOWS that it's her. A confirming detail for him.

And something she could have set up when she had the time vortex in her and was scattering Bad Wolf all around the place/times.
Although I'm not positive about that.
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Warthawg1

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptyTue May 22, 2018 1:02 am

Good Lord...

I just watched The Stolen Earth and Journey's End.

What a rousing adventure... non stop excitement.

The ending....beautiful. Sad... wonderful. What happened to Donna... tragic, brilliant, lovely... heart breaking. I want to cry, but I can't do that... it isn't me.

The Doctor... alone again

Rose... she's got her Doctor, again so sad to see her closed off.. so wondrous.. so....

Donna.. what she saw... what she did... and what she lost..

I'm still processing it all... that was all wonderful.


The rest of it leading up to that.. incredible action.. non-stop excitement...

.... and the most use of deus ex machina I have ever seen in my life..

incinerators with open buttons on the inside.. rejuventating (not regenerating) Doctors... Mickey/Rickys
appearing out of no where, Doctor Donnas, second Doctors, K-9's, Dr Smiths..

I could go on and about how every time a situation was impossible, Davies pulled something.. whatever
out of his writing ass to solve it. I'm assuming this was Davies as each writer has developed a recognizable style. It did lead to non stop excitement, but it lacked depth. It was just one ass bomb
after another.

That being said, it is hard to complain. It was heart pounding excitement with a strong emotional payoff
that finally brought closure to many things.
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davidalan

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptyTue May 22, 2018 2:53 am

first of all here's one of my favorite visuals (the shadow proclamation ship) and one of my favorite scenes in all of dr who. posh name for police. hilarious! plus the exchange between the dr and the judoon. i really think the dr is calling the judoon leader a homo at the end of it all but maybe i'm just sensitive to phantom codes.



i like this as well. Harriet Jones is a hoot: Not now Captain. And of course Sarah Jane Smith a total blast from the past way back in the Tom Baker days. I like her in this double episode.




the two part episode itself is a wonderful battle against an opponent bent on complete annihilation (which suggests they are not worthy of any consideration of the dr's insane bent on total universal harmony) not to mention a bit of doctor mockery and a lot of maniacal laughter. all good fun. the heroes from various directions end up with the doctor but davros and his machines thwart their efforts and ironically it's the attempted destruction of the tardis with Donna inside that spawns not only a duplicate doctor but the season long hinted at Doctor Donna dyad. Donna and the new Dr appear and don't mind a destroy all the enemy approach (thank you Doctor Donna) with Donna while describing her sudden acquisition of timelord genius uttering the immortal line: Thank You Davros. But that's only part of the equation. It appears that the Daleks had something of a traitor in their midst. The great Dalek Caan!




Unfortunately the youtubester cut out two great moments. One is where the Supreme Dalek insists: The Abomination Is Insane! And two where after Dalek Caan voices a whole string of jibberish a pair of lesser Daleks look at each other in a very WTF manner. So great. But Dalek Caan soon reveals that he has tapped into time or the future or whatever and created a scenario where mean old Davros and the Daleks are defeated. But at a price. The price is of course Donna who (with the duplicate Doctor) blows up all the Daleks (good riddance) and then all the Doctor's friends (except for Jackie) can drive the Tardis all the way home.

But with everyone home there is bad news. Donna in her current condition as a human timelord hybrid will die. She will burn up and die. She knows it too. Where she gets stuck on the word binary is just heartbreaking. Finally the Doctor relieves Donna of all her memory of her experience as a timelord companion. The worst! It's so sad. But this part is even sadder:  




Meanwhile I won't post of clip of Davros mocking the Doctor about his enlisting his companions to do the Dr's dirty work because it is the very worst element of what otherwise is such a compelling two part finale. I mean Davros why? You see this as humiliation? I see this as a weak story arc. A wasted opportunity for a blustering Davros to spew out something important. I just try to forget this element of the two parter and pretend that Davros instead spewed that the Dalek-only universe will build a Dalek palace made out of rock debris from Earth on the former coordinates of Galifrey. Now that would be Davros at his finest. Not as a mouthpiece for weak writing. But he does get to yell at Dalek Caan. Now that's something.


dramatic dramatic dramatic dramatic
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MrBill60

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptyTue May 22, 2018 1:36 pm

Donna's demise was pretty tragic, all those experiences gone forever.
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MrBill60

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptyTue May 22, 2018 4:47 pm

I do miss David Tennant, he's so superior and much better written than the following Doctor.
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davidalan

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptyTue May 22, 2018 5:01 pm

yep I agree. it's as though it show goes from deliciously mad scientist to Malibu dude surfer. I like Matt Smith sometimes though. But the Ponds! The Ponds! They are so great!

But there are some solid David Tennant solo episodes to come.
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MrBill60

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptyTue May 22, 2018 6:24 pm

Yep, the Ponds and River!  I'm not looking forward to the Ponds' departure,  I'm almost there in my re-watch.  That really pissed me off.  I think the best part of the Matt Smith episodes are the supporting characters.
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vonnegut

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptyTue May 22, 2018 8:02 pm

NO SPOILERS
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Warthawg1

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptyTue May 22, 2018 9:01 pm

So I'm guessing River Song will be back.
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Warthawg1

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptyTue May 22, 2018 9:12 pm

The next Doctor

I'm not used to seeing a Christmas special at the end of a season, as so far those have been
at the beginning. That was a nice episode I suppose, but after the emotionally draining season
ender, it was hard to just sit back and enjoy it. I am not really sure they should have followed up the Daleks with Cybermen. I needed a departure from that level of villain.

Maybe I shouldn't have watched straight through like I did last night, but after all that with The Doctor
amd Rose on the beach again, and Donna... I was just too wound up to go to bed. Now someone
sort of spoiled me that there really wouldn't be a new companion right away, so I am feeling a bit
melancholy with a lack of enthusiasm about starting a new season.
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vonnegut

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptyTue May 22, 2018 9:14 pm

Picked up on that, eh?

Ah well. You could kind of guess, from the plotline, anyway, and that the guy who wrote the episode introducing her takes over the show next season.

I'll have a lot to say about S4 finale and Donna in a bit, maybe tonight, if I can go ahead and rewatch. Need to emotionally prepare to cry a lot. Some fucked up shit happens to companions, but nothing (literally even when they die) is as fucked up as what happened to Donna.

But there's also a lot there to consider.

Tonight. I will try.


As for you, you have a bunch of specials to watch.

Five to be specific. The first two are Meh. Don't get excited.

The last three are OMG. Get excited.

--Next Doctor
--Planet of the Dead
--Waters of Mars
--End of Time Part 1
--End of Time Part 2
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vonnegut

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptyTue May 22, 2018 11:42 pm

Okay, rewatching.

About Donna and the Doctor:
She says... no matter what's happening and how bad it may be... Rose is coming back. Isn't that good?
He looks up serious, then breaks into a grin "Yeah."

Martha couldn't have had that exchange with him, eaten up with jealousy as she was. But Donna knows him. And cares about him. And they understand each other.

And the whole gang is here.
Martha with Unit, Torchwood Team (Capt Jack, Ianto, Gwen, of "Torchwood" spinoff), Sarah Jane and her son (of "Sarah Jane Adventures" spin off), Wilf and Donna's Shitty Mom, and then Rose pops up herself.

Of course it's Daleks. Can't have a good finale without Daleks. EXTERMINATE!!!

Billie Piper does a fantastic job. Her face when she realizes it's Daleks... Rose is back. She's very aware of how scared everyone should be, but she hasn't lost her guts.

In terms of companions, it will always be:
Rose is the guts, Martha is the brains, Donna is the heart, and Amy... well, obviously she's the legs.

This is pure Davies stuff... PLANETS STOLEN FROM THE SKY, BY DALEKS. I love it.

And the LOST MOON OF POOSH 55 55 55

Gotta love the early scenes of the Daleks tearing shit up. MAXIMUM EXTERMINATION. Best homicidal pepper pots of all time.

The Shadow Proclamation person saying to Donna, "You are something new." Donna: "Not me. I'm just a temp." <3
SP person: "I'm so sorry for your loss."
Donna: "I know. Whole planet gone."
SP person: "I mean the loss that is yet to come"

Cue me starting to cry about this episode.
Oh, Donna's loss.

The Doctor just Nopes out of the Shadow Proclamation, lmfaooo.
I always love when he's a renegade.

In the meantime, Wilf attacks the Daleks trying to blind them with a paint gun, because Wilf.

HARRIET JONES, FORMER PRIME MINISTER <3 <3 <3

You gotta love Harriet.

Then we get to see Martha's Shittiest Mom. Joy.

I am so tickled at Rose's prickly introduction to Martha Jones, former companion of the Doctor. "Oi, I was there first!"

Harriet being willing and ready to sacrifice herself. Sometimes humans do this inexplicable thing.

The Doctor gets onto the subwave network, all the reunions... "Everyone except Rose." He doesn't forget her. Ever.

ROSE AND THE DOCTOR SEEING EACH OTHER, GOOSEBUMPS

And then he gets Exterminated, lmao.

Regeneration time...

I have to ask, Warty, were you concerned that you were about to meet 11?
I was.
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vonnegut

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptyWed May 23, 2018 12:49 am

Next ep.

10 loves himself so much. Just regenerates back into... himself 55 55 55

Jackie and Mickey the Idiot show up, NOW the gang's all here.

Okay, stuff happening too fast to comment, metacrisis happens, and then:

New Doctor: Because you're important.
Donna: But I'm not.
New Doctor: Oh, but you are though. *pause* Oh... you don't really believe that, do you?

Oh Donna. Bless your heart.

....

too much excitement to comment, and now "I was gonna be with you. Forever. Rest of my life. You and me, travelling, in the Tardis." and I'm sobbing

Oh Donna.

Fuck. Oh Donna.

That look on River's face when she learned your name.

And done with my rewatch, didn't comment during, so I'm going to have to take a moment to stop crying and then synthesize.
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vonnegut

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptyWed May 23, 2018 1:26 am

Okay. Okay.

I'm calming the fuck down after watching that again.

It's hard for me to watch, I did it for you, Warty :p

Nothing is as brutal as what happens to Donna.

The temp. No one important.

And let's fucking flash back for a moment, to the first meeting with the Doctor:

Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 GiQX

So what is it about Donna that makes her the most important woman in the universe?

We don't know. We'll never know. We know that Dalek Caan manipulated timelines to bring her to this spot, all of the left turns, all of those subtle moments that brought them together.

Why her?

Does it matter?

There's no such thing as "unimportant."
Donna had so much hiding within herself that she never had the opportunity to express. She was such a dull and meaningless, worthless entity. Until the Doctor happened and, rather than finding HIM, she found herself.
"But she was better with you!" Wilf exclaims.

The Doctor didn't make her better. She used him to make herself better. She discovered what she could be.

And then she FUCKING LOST IT.

I am way more emotional about this than about anything that has happened in this entire show.

Moffat is twisted and Moffat is manipulative, but Davies crushes every emotion you've ever had and he is merciless.

Everything Donna did, everything she was, everything she discovered on her path of becoming more than she ever thought she could be-- all gone now. Like it never even happened.

Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 Tumblr_mr76b1zpq21swvkkso1_250

FUCK.

FUCK.

FUCK.

The horror on her face, and the agony on his.

He had to save her life, but at what cost?

Quote :
DOCTOR: There's never been a human Time Lord metacrisis before now. And you know why.
DONNA: Because there can't be. I want to stay.
DOCTOR: Look at me. Donna, look at me.
DONNA: I was going to be with you forever.
DOCTOR: I know.
DONNA: The rest of my life, travelling in the Tardis. The Doctor Donna. No. Oh my god. I can't go back. Don't make me go back. Doctor, please, please don't make me go back.
DOCTOR: Donna. Oh, Donna Noble. I am so sorry. But we had the best of times.

Jesus.

How she BEGS him not to do this. She would rather die than lose it. If she burned up and died, at least she would still have herself, what she found, what she became.
And instead he steals it. While she pleads. That's what kills me. She is so completely and fully aware of what is about to be taken from her-- and he does it anyway.
Because he needs her to live. Because he can't stand her dying. His need to keep her alive supercedes her desire to keep who she is.

I wish I could get deeper into what all of this means, and paint a nice picture of it, but it all just fucking sucks so hard.

Quote :

DOCTOR: I just want you to know there are worlds out there, safe in the sky because of her. That there are people living in the light, and singing songs of Donna Noble, a thousand million light years away. They will never forget her, while she can never remember.

Really. REALLY?! REALLY!?!?!

Fuck you, Davies. Fuck. You.

People singing songs of Donna Noble.

And, this DOES change S4 on the rewatch for me, and maybe why I talked it up so much and found so much more in each episode-- because I knew that she would lose it, all of it. To quote Wilf, all those wonderful things she did. All lost.

I think that this was for a reason, though. I think what the story is saying-- no one is unimportant. Even the least important person, given the chance, can become something greater than they ever thought they could be.


But goddamn it hurts.

And yes, one could say that it gets worse--

Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 Watch-doctor-who-they-said-itll-be-fun-they-said-5502251

But this.

And then there is the character of the Doctor, having to do that to Donna.

She was the one who made him stop.

The one who kept him in check and kept him from boiling over.

And now he's on his own again. Like he told Wilf, all his people, "They've all got someone else."

Sarah Jane returns to her Adventures, Jack has his Torchwood team, Mickey runs off with Martha, and then there is that scene with Rose at Bad Wolf Bay-- again such an intense emotional resonance, just that the fate of Donna trumps it.

Russell Davies. He uses a million deus ex machina, he goes for GRAND EPIC SCALE so much, it's always Daleks, and he trots out ALLLLL of his people for this one, his last season finale. I wouldn't call it his swan song-- that's End of Time 1&2-- but this is such a Davies episode. He fudges on the details and makes a million plot stretches, but he's made the characters so well and makes everything so character-driven that you forgive his flaws.

Doctor Who, as a story, would be dead if not for Davies.
Moffat is a genius at writing episodes, and he is about to do some great things as show-runner, but Davies made you love the characters.

And Tennant IS the Doctor.

I don't know any other actor who could nail that ancient, sorrowful thousand-light-year stare like he does. His eyes are so old. And his grin is so perfect. And he licks everything. And he runs. The Time Lord who just kept running.

And, Warty, you have so much still ahead of you.

River, upon realizing "You... You're Donna Noble"
Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 Tumblr_mykgr6MWpt1qdm7rno1_500

As you've been spoiled-- you'll get to know River. You already know how she dies, now you get to find out how she lives. And if Rose is the guts, Martha the brains, Donna the heart, and Amy the legs 55 55 55 River is the WHOLE package.

Anyway. I'm all cried out and I think I've run out of stuff to say for the moment.



So we'll leave with this:

Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 F3fd0385acf094871bcd333b462a870c
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vonnegut

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptyWed May 23, 2018 1:27 am

Warthawg1 wrote:
The next Doctor

I'm not used to seeing a Christmas special at the end of a season, as so far those have been
at the beginning. That was a nice episode I suppose, but after the emotionally draining season
ender, it was hard to just sit back and enjoy it. I am not really sure they should have followed up the Daleks with Cybermen. I needed a departure from that level of villain.

Maybe I shouldn't have watched straight through like I did last night, but after all that with The Doctor
amd Rose on the beach again, and Donna... I was just too wound up to go to bed. Now someone
sort of spoiled me that there really wouldn't be a new companion right away, so I am feeling a bit
melancholy with a lack of enthusiasm about starting a new season.

Like I said... meh, meh, meh.

Next one also.

Waters of Mars. That's when you will start to feel again.

And End of Time is Russell Davies' swan song.
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vonnegut

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptyWed May 23, 2018 1:34 am

Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 You-never-forget-your-first-doctor-well-unless-youre-donna-25147015
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vonnegut

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptyWed May 23, 2018 1:35 am

And for the Finding Nemo fans out there...

Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 H2600932E
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vonnegut

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptyWed May 23, 2018 1:37 am

Anyway. A toast to the Doctor Donna.

Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 Tenth-Doctor-Hugs-the-tenth-doctor-38759259-360-202

And moving on.

Times to go, places to be.
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davidalan

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptyWed May 23, 2018 2:50 am

Love the Doctor Donna.

I'd like a moment though, sometime in the future, where Donna is the best human, in human terms, that she can be. Because by rights, that quality should be there. I don't think how great she became erupted out of a big bang vacuum. I mean I get what the show did, by making Donna almost vacuous, but part of me doesn't buy it. I think, in human terms, she would be someone's best friend, or someone's hero, and she would rise to that occasion.

Meanwhile, at least she had the guts to slaughter the Daleks. There wasn't even a choice. The Daleks would have, just out of spite, settled on destroying the earth and then laugh about it.


As for the Xmas special, my guess is a lot of time elapsed between the end of the Doctor Donna season and that. So there was time. I actually like the Xmas special. I think DM's memory loss or identity mix up or what have you is a comparable fit to Donna. I thought the themes connected. So I liked it for that.

Planet of the Dead. Had to look it up because I didn't remember a thing about it. Okay. Now I remember one part of it. Of course.

Waters of Mars is way better.

End of Time? I like part of it. The best part of it. The duo. They're lovely together.
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Warthawg1

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptyWed May 23, 2018 1:38 pm

vonnegut wrote:


I have to ask, Warty, were you concerned that you were about to meet 11?
I was.

yes, but not exactly.. As I have noted before, I have Whovian acquaintances and this universe has
always existed on the periphery of mine. I have a general knowledge of the length of
each Doctor's service time, and I sort of knew it was a wee bit too. It was a "wait a minute..this
can't be happening now.. so what is going on?" moment.

vonnegut wrote:

Nothing is as brutal as what happens to Donna.

The temp.  No one important.
---------------------
So what is it about Donna that makes her the most important woman in the universe?

We don't know.  We'll never know.  We know that Dalek Caan manipulated timelines to bring her to this spot, all of the left turns, all of those subtle moments that brought them together.

Why  her?

Does it matter?

There's no such thing as "unimportant."

Donna had so much hiding within herself that she never had the opportunity to express.  She was such a dull and meaningless, worthless entity.  Until the Doctor happened and, rather than finding HIM, she found herself.  
"But she was better with you!" Wilf exclaims.

The Doctor didn't make her better.  She used him to make herself better.  She discovered what she could be.

And then she FUCKING LOST IT.

I am way more emotional about this than about anything that has happened in this entire show.

Moffat is twisted and Moffat is manipulative, but Davies crushes every emotion you've ever had and he is merciless.

Everything Donna did, everything she was, everything she discovered on her path of becoming more than she ever thought she could be-- all gone now.  Like it never even happened.  


He had to save her life, but at what cost?


I think that this was for a reason, though.  I think what the story is saying-- no one is unimportant.  Even the least important person, given the chance, can become something greater than they ever thought they could be.  


A few thoughts..

I like to imagine things to fill in gaps, and I've done some imagining with post Doctor Donna.
I realize what she went back to but in some ways it would have been even more cruel if she had
to go back remembering what she lost. As it stands she never knew and she seemed as content
as she ever was and knew nothing more.

Why Donna? Because it was a long path to get where they ended up, and only Donna could
have taken the Doctor there. Why did Dalek Caan bring her there? He had seen everything and
knew that she was the only path to get to where he wanted to go. I think it was also important that a nobody do what she did... a human nothing brought the Dalek empire down and a human nothing became the most important person in the universe. Dalek Caan had come to realize
that the least of us humans is just as important as what some call the best, and that is the lesson
that was taught here. The Daleks in their superiority had to be taken down by the least of us.
You answered the question yourself.

As far as at what cost saving Donna.. Life is precious to The Doctor, and no one is unimportant.
He will always choose life, and it wasn't a meaningless life nor one of regret and sadness he
gave back to Donna. It was just life... beautiful, wondrous, simple life..because really the lesson
here is that there is no such thing.

I walk away from this episode imagining wanting to believe that The Doctor didn't lead her to
something tragic. It's only tragic because of what we know. I like to think that Donna one day found a similar life to the one she experienced on the moon above the Library. A plain life filled with the simplicity of two children and a man who loved her... a normal, boring.... and beautiful
life. I want to walk away thinking in the end, Donna Noble was saved.
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vonnegut

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptyWed May 23, 2018 7:29 pm

<3
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Warthawg1

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptyThu May 24, 2018 12:10 am

Planet of the Dead...

Not much to say... 

I liked Christina, but she's one and done.

The Doctor's demise is imminent... "he will knock four times".

I'm not sure I want to proceed...
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vonnegut

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptyThu May 24, 2018 7:52 am

:) He will knock four times

Oh, man.

This will be fun to watch.
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Warthawg1

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptyThu May 24, 2018 8:59 pm

The Waters of Mars....


Well okay... This is certainly my kind of Doctor Who as we take a turn for the dark side. There are those episodes where there's great action or horror, and there are episodes that explore a depth to the characters
that's pretty astounding.... and then there's those episodes like this that do both.

Heart pounding excitement... classic John Carpenter horror, and an underlying exploration of character. Here
we see a fixed point in time and as a result an utterly helpless doctor for most of the episode. Even knowing
what had to go down, he was still quintessential Doctor, wanting to know the life form.

The use of water as a horror device is brilliant in my opinion, but all that flood of horror is just background
noise to what is going on with the Doctor. His interaction with Adelaide was great
stuff... I'll let someone else post the quotes... Anyway, wonderful when he
says "consolation" and she knows..

This was Tennant Doctor at his best, especially as he walked away listening to the final words of the
doomed colinists. The show could have worked that way as well with him being tortured as he walked away knowing he could do something, but also couldn't. It could have set him down the path of not being able
to take it anymore and his self-destruction, but I think we've already been down that path. This time a different 
path was taken, and enter the self proclaimed winner Lord of Time, with the flames surrounding him; The god
of thunder and fire. He's decided what he has done does give him the right, and...well.. "frack it". 

So there he goes... The Doctor that could go Colonel Kurtz.. a wee bit mad with power at this moment and it's
a signal to us all that he has lost his way. There is no more Donna to tell him no.. he is the ultimate power here.

We could have ended this way... The Doctor could have taken them anywhere and told them to go lead simple lives.. to the Earth of 2059 things would always be the same. That would've been nice, clean and easy but this
isn't that.. this is messy. Messy when you play with fixed points. It takes another one of those crappy humans to rise to the occasion and say "no", as Adelaide ends things as she has come to believe they were supposed
to end.

He has gone too far, and all good things must now come to an end.
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vonnegut

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptyThu May 24, 2018 9:08 pm

Warthawg1 wrote:
It could have set him down the path of not being able
to take it anymore and his self-destruction, but I think we've already been down that path. This time a different 
path was taken, and enter the self proclaimed winner Lord of Time, with the flames surrounding him; The god
of thunder and fire. He's decided what he has done does give him the right, and...well.. "frack it". 

So there he goes... The Doctor that could go Colonel Kurtz.. a wee bit mad with power at this moment and it's
a signal to us all that he has lost his way. There is no more Donna to tell him no.. he is the ultimate power here.

GodDAMMIT I love the shit out of this episode.

I'm going to rewatch tonight and comment more, but you hit it so hard right here.

Next up for you is End of Time Parts 1 and 2. The first part aired on Christmas, the second part a week later on New Year's.
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Warthawg1

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptyThu May 24, 2018 10:00 pm

.

Adelaide; You’ll die here too. What’s going to save you?
The Doctor: Captain Adelaide Brooke.
 Adelaide Damn you.
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vonnegut

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptyThu May 24, 2018 10:58 pm

Okay, Waters of Mars.

First off, Adelaide Brooke, played by the amazing Lindsay Duncan. She's awesome in every role I've ever seen her.
As Adelaide she comes off almost too brittle to be human in the start, then gradually letting emotion leak in while still maintaining strength and dignity. Love her.

Gadget Gadget. It wouldn't be a Doctor Who Special without a little goofiness. I like how the Doctor reacts to it, though.
Quote :

GADGET: Gadget gadget.
DOCTOR: Does it have to keep saying that?
ROMAN: I think it's funny.
DOCTOR: I hate funny robots.

One of my favorite lines in the whole series:
Quote :
ADELAIDE: State your name, rank, and intention.
DOCTOR: The Doctor. Doctor. Fun.

The Doctor's reaction to this very fixed point in time makes the episode. First, the flat-out fanboy glee with which he meets everyone-- he knows all their names and he thinks that they are brilliant.
Then it hits him what day it is. "You're only 27."
Even when he's half-mad with loneliness and going off the rails, he is still, at his core, heartbreakingly full of pity and compassion for suffering and loss.

That's why he keeps being drawn back, after all of the "I'm leaving. Out. Gone. Right now. Gotta go. I'm sorry."

But this exchange:
Quote :
DOCTOR: I've read all that stuff about you, Captain Adelaide. But one thing they never said. Was it worth it, the mission?
ADELAIDE: We've got excellent results from the soil analysis.
DOCTOR: No, but all of it. Because they say you sacrificed everything. Devoted your whole life to get here.
ADELAIDE: It's been chaos back home. Forty long years. The climate, the ozone, the oil apocalypse. We almost reached extinction. Then to fly above that, to stand on a world with no smoke, where the only straight line is the sunlight? Yes. It's worth it.
DOCTOR: Ah. That's the Adelaide Brooke I always wanted to meet. The woman with starlight in her soul.
... is why he doesn't give up on humans.

And the Water hits.

It was really fun when, recently, we actually DID find water on Mars and all of the Whovians are making memes "DON'T TOUCH IT!!!"

This is indeed a great episode for action, though. Especially for Davies, whose strength tends to be character development rather than plotting (imo). The tension is paced so well, particularly when the evacuation starts.

Quote :
DOCTOR: Imagine it, Adelaide, if you began a journey that takes the human race all the way out to the stars. It begins with you, and then your granddaughter, you inspire her, so that in thirty years Susie Fontana Brooke is the pilot of the first lightspeed ship to Proxima Centauri. And then everywhere, with her children, and her children's children forging the way. To the Dragon Star, the Celestial Belt of the Winter Queen, the Map of the Watersnake Wormholes. One day a Brooke will even fall in love with a Tandonian prince, that's the start of a whole new species. But everything starts with you, Adelaide. From fifty years ago to right here, today. Imagine.
ADELAIDE: Who are you? Why are you telling me this? Doctor, why tell me?
DOCTOR: As consolation.

I will always love 9, and 12 *might* just be my favorite at this point, but no one does sorrow like 10.

It's those thousand-light-year eyes.

And then he watches as the tragedy starts to happen all around him, and I think that's what really snaps him. It's an excess of empathetic suffering. He doesn't want power for power's sake-- he ran AWAY from his own people because of that, after all-- but 900 years of having to stand by and restrain himself from "helping" is killing him. What kind of a Doctor just walks away and lets people die?

Quote :

ADELAIDE: It can't be stopped. Don't die with us.
DOCTOR: No, because someone told me just recently. They said I was going to die. They said he will knock four times, and I think I know what that means, and it doesn't mean right here, right now, because I don't hear anyone knocking, do you?
(Andy thumps three times on the bulkhead door.)
DOCTOR: Three knocks is all you're getting.

LMFAOOO. Oh, man. Knocking four times.

Quote :

ADELAIDE: But I'm supposed to be dead.
DOCTOR: Not any more.
ADELAIDE: But Susie, my granddaughter. The person she's supposed to become might never exist now.
DOCTOR: Nah! Captain Adelaide can inspire her face to face. Different details, but the story's the same.
ADELAIDE: You can't know that. And if my family changes, the whole of history could change. The future of the human race. No-one should have that much power.
DOCTOR: Tough.

*chills*

I wouldn't say this is the darkest that the Doctor ever gets-- 11 has his moments-- but damn.

The Time Lord Victorious.

What makes it hurt is that he is still not EVIL. He is just hurting so badly. Too much has happened to him and he's lost too much.
Rose is off with a human version of himself (which has to eat him up), Donna-- the one who made him stop-- can't even remember him, his planet is still destroyed and all of his people gone BUT the Daleks remain in the universe (what must also be a constant consuming thought in the back of his mind-- his genocide was for nothing after all), he's alone and will not allow himself company anymore because he's terrified of letting himself care for someone only to see them hurt because of him.

But he's no good alone.
He doesn't have a purpose, alone.
And it's driven him to this.

Has he actually kind of lost his mind at this point?
I think so.
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vonnegut

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptyFri May 25, 2018 9:04 pm

Any End of Time tonight?
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Warthawg1

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptySat May 26, 2018 8:27 am

EOT part 1


Operatic tragedy feel with the choir at the beginning. Behind Wilfred's head we see the words "died for his country". This feels like preemptive mourning of The Doctor.

The way the Doctor talks about where he has been and what he's been doing while avoiding the Ood's call. It's almost as if he is pleading his case. 

The emotion when he talked to Wilfred about dying, and what happens even if he regenerates. In a way it's like Donna.. some new fellow goes sauntering away but he loses everything. The emotion of that entire scene was fantastic. Wilfred
pleading with The Doctor was acted equally as well. One
of my favorite scenes ever.

From that point on... the rest of the first episode... I really didn't care much. For me this was all about exploring the character amd how he was dealing with what was going on. It was all aboit Wilfred and Donna...


The Master jumping around, displaying bad table manners, and becoming everyone was almost nonsensical, but again.. that's not what this was about.


I was too tired to do part 2 last night... 
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vonnegut

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptySat May 26, 2018 10:35 am

Yep, looks like you got the important bits 55

Davies going out on the most Davies episode ever... great for characters, a bit absurd for plot.
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davidalan

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptySat May 26, 2018 11:13 am

The Dr and the old man are great.

This Master? Kind of a loud bore as usual.

The plot. A mechanism. Nothing more.
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Warthawg1

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PostSubject: Re: Wartys Dr. Who First Watch   Wartys Dr. Who First Watch - Page 11 EmptySat May 26, 2018 12:53 pm

hNot just a mechanism.... a distracting mechanism. For me it would have played much
better to have a more subdued and sinister foil. Here, The Master was a comic book
character. 

The interactions though between Wilfors and The Doctor were just gold. The Doctor facing his fate..
scared yet still cocky..
wonderful
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