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 Castle Rock - HULU

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sandi

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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:39 am

@davidalan wrote:
Molly:

She confesses a lot of stuff to Henry who rejects her and with some foul language on top. Outside of contact with modern Henry, she seems like a ghost. In fact, she seems to see one. The blond woman, rather important last week, has a cameo by the real estate sign.

During her "confession", Molly says she saw the Reverend die -- so that answers BJ's question.

And what is up with that figure she saw? Way creepy. She's shaken but not freaked. So, I'm wondering if she has other paranormal attributes she hasn't shared with us. My initial thought of the figure was that is was the Reverend with a bandaged face. I don't know why I thought that.
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Big John

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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:00 am

Just watched ep 6. I am very disappointed that:
Spoiler:
 

This is an amazing episode. I'm reeling from it at the moment. Too much to process. I'll watch it again soon enough. For now, I'm just gonna connect the easy stuff.

From the Birthday Party Massacre


From the 2018 Deaver house


Definitely the same model. I can post other pics if needed but I did a fairly thorough examination of the scene and it is the same type of turntable. Coincidence? Probably not. I'd bet a dollar to a Penny it's the turntable from the Birthday Party Massacre which, 60 or so years later, is currently in the Deaver house.

What does Odin have to gain by locking Henry in the schisma room?

Does anyone here know ASL? I'd like to know if Odin is being interpreted word for word by Willie (played by Rory Culkin).

The manner in which Ruth uses the the chess pieces reminds of the spinning quarter in Inception.

On the kitchen floor in the final scene, none of Ruth's pills remained on the floor. There was quite a mess on the floor though. Did she have the opportunity/time to pick them all up?

Castle Rock is very careful with its camera work. There have been many scenes I've examined with the purpose to see if a certain something would be there. The camera avoids the area in which I want to look yet the scene takes place right there. Quite clever.

I'll say no more, mainly because I need to think more on this ep, but partially because I want to make sure the other parties here don't get spoiled.
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Big John

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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:16 am

@sandi wrote:
@Big John wrote:
From ep 3. Other than a copy of young Henry's missing child poster, this is the only significant/curious thing we've been shown in the Lacy basement, or as Jackie refers to it "nice murder basement."




BJ -- that's Molly's box containing her little toy hourglass, 11 yr old Henry's missing poster and the red plaid hoodie she took from his house back in 1991.

In episode one, Molly goes down into the basement (which I thought was her basement), grabs this box, sets the timer, looks at the poster and then holds the hoodie.  Right as the timer runs out, (probably a minute timer), she stuffs the shirt back in the box.


You're probably correct. I quite likely confused Molly's house with Lacy's house.

Still though, the Lacy house is up for sale, right? Isn't the Lacy house what Molly showed to Gordon and his wife? Where did Mrs. Lacy go?
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:37 am

@sandi wrote:
During her "confession", Molly says she saw the Reverend die -- so that answers BJ's question.

Does it though? We've known all along, cuz it has been plainly inferred, that she believes she killed rev Deav. This isn't new info. Frankly though,  she probably did commit the death blow. It just hasn't been reinforced in a way I'd prefer. So I remain skeptical.

Quote :
And what is up with that figure she saw?  Way creepy.  She's shaken but not freaked.  So, I'm wondering if she has other paranormal attributes she hasn't shared with us.  My initial thought of the figure was that is was the Reverend with a bandaged face.  I don't know why I thought that.

I think you've nailed it here. In Molly's dream where she enters rev Deav's church and he's preaching, both he and the entire congregation had bandaged faces by the end of that scene.

Regarding Odin (Odin Branch) and Willie, I'm fairly certain they were both at rev Deav's  first funeral. I remember the camera making a point to briefly focus on them and the RV. I'll post a pic if I can find it.

Not crazy about the explanation of the ringing in Henry's ear.

Ruth apparently saw the same doctor that NN saw after  he was released. Seems that the word ordering test (concussion test) is quite popular. I was waiting for the reveal of how Ruth ordered the words, but it never came.

Seems NN is more than just a bystander/witness/whatever that theory figured him to be. However, in all fairness, we still don't know what happened. Could be NN was hurt trying to save Ruth and whatever danger she was facing wouldn't have been present if NN hadn't been locked  away. That's the lesser of the explanations though. I still think NN is evil and is also PW, but my mind is open.

However, it is closing. The incident at Juniper Hill does not bode in his favor. Plus, once free, it seems as though he goes straight back to the Deaver house. I figure Ruth knew where Henry was taking him, but maybe not. However, the look of horror on her face when NN walked in through her back door, could speak to a large portion of her shock at seeing him. If she thought he was still a guest on her property, she might not have looked so horrified. There is a chance that she had already heard about the Juniper Hill incident on the radio or by some other means, which would also add to her horror. How did NN get back there anyway, and how long did it take?

NN is going to turn Lacy's car into a monument to warden Lacy and everyone who helped put NN in that cage? This sounds like some evil vengeful shit right there. It immediately precedes what appears to be NN going back on his word to help Ruth. NN cannot be trusted, at least as far as his communication with Pangborn goes. I'm thinking that Lacy's car has a different and more meaningful purpose for NN rather than turning it into some monument. I think he's lying to Pangborn once again. I'm wondering if NN is searching for the talisman that Henry was holding, the statue as we've been calling it.

Can't wait for Henry to arrive home!
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sandi

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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:00 am

Just a little insert announcement here.


It's official -- Castle Rock is renewed for a second season!

LINK to article
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:38 am

@Big John wrote:
What does Odin have to gain by locking Henry in the schisma room?

An ally? Maybe he thinks this will unlock Henry's memory?

@Big John wrote:
On the kitchen floor in the final scene, none of Ruth's pills remained on the floor. There was quite a mess on the floor though. Did she have the opportunity/time to pick them all up?

Or were they crushed underfoot and are now unrecognizable?

@Big John wrote:

Still though, the Lacy house is up for sale, right? Isn't the Lacy house what Molly showed to Gordon and his wife? Where did Mrs. Lacy go?

That's correct on both counts -- the Lacy house is for sale and that's the house Gordon and his wife visited. I have no idea where Mrs. Lacy went.

@Big John wrote:
Seems NN is more than just a bystander/witness/whatever that theory figured him to be. However, in all fairness, we still don't know what happened. Could be NN was hurt trying to save Ruth and whatever danger she was facing wouldn't have been present if NN hadn't been locked away. That's the lesser of the explanations though. I still think NN is evil and is also PW, but my mind is open.

However, it is closing. The incident at Juniper Hill does not bode in his favor. Plus, once free, it seems as though he goes straight back to the Deaver house. I figure Ruth knew where Henry was taking him, but maybe not. However, the look of horror on her face when NN walked in through her back door, could speak to a large portion of her shock at seeing him. If she thought he was still a guest on her property, she might not have looked so horrified. There is a chance that she had already heard about the Juniper Hill incident on the radio or by some other means, which would also add to her horror. How did NN get back there anyway, and how long did it take?

I thought the same thing. Another one bites the dust. *kicks rock*

Ruth has looked at NN that way every time (to a greater or lesser degree). I think she recognizes him in some way. Also she mentions the suit he was wearing as being the one the Reverend was buried in. I also think she knew he had been in her bedroom while they were gone. Or maybe she was still seeing him there?


@Big John wrote:

NN is going to turn Lacy's car into a monument to warden Lacy and everyone who helped put NN in that cage? This sounds like some evil vengeful shit right there. It immediately precedes what appears to be NN going back on his word to help Ruth. NN cannot be trusted, at least as far as his communication with Pangborn goes. I'm thinking that Lacy's car has a different and more meaningful purpose for NN rather than turning it into some monument. I think he's lying to Pangborn once again. I'm wondering if NN is searching for the talisman that Henry was holding, the statue as we've been calling it.

I wonder if Warden Lacy's severed head will be part of that monument? I'm also wondering who else NN blames for helping Lacy put him in a cage?

NN's idea of helping Ruth may be different from everyone else's. Maybe he thinks "helping" her to die is beneficial given any suffering she currently has?

I do like the idea of NN searching for the "talisman" or statue that Henry was holding.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:51 am

I fear for Molly.

She finally feels she can confide in Henry and tell him she (connected to Henry) killed his father, the Reverend. She misjudged his acceptance -- there wasn't any. He thinks she's crazy and now a killer. To top it off, he's suffered all these years because the town thinks he killed the Reverend while all this time, it was Molly. (But that's not why I fear for her.)

Molly saw the bandaged-face Reverend and was tempted to use the drugs. I'm glad she did not. But this is why I fear for her. I hope she continues to avoid the drugs because she needs her sixth sense to be in top form as I think that apparition (or whatever it was) is malicious and means her harm. Shine, Molly -- shine!

I think Henry is beginning to recover his memories. It seems to me, his little exploration brought on some hazy memories of a similar time in the woods searching for the "sound". Did anyone else think that?
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:31 am

@Big John wrote:


From the Birthday Party Massacre


From the 2018 Deaver house


Definitely the same model. I can post other pics if needed but I did a fairly thorough examination of the scene and it is the same type of turntable. Coincidence? Probably not. I'd bet a dollar to a Penny it's the turntable from the Birthday Party Massacre  which, 60 or so years later, is currently in the Deaver house.


Maybe Rev.Deaver was Gordon/Gordie's little brother, and ultimately wound up with family belongings? (Rev. Deaver was born in 1952 -- by the nameplate on his portrait at the church which I have to add to the timeline later.)
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:21 am

When later I realized that Branch's name was Odin, I said voila northern mythology. Odin was of course a god tied into a lot of things. Most things didn't interest me except that Odin tended to have a staff (Mr. Branch) and was as Wikipedia states a Psychopomp, which, like Mercury (Hermes), escorts the dead to the underworld. So do we have an underworld? Is that what all these travelers will reach when they are thinking they're reaching the voice of God?


As for Willie, I think of Willie Metcalf from Edgar Lee Master's Spoon River Anthology, a truly great work where people "talk" from beyond the grave. These are Willie Metcalf's lines.

I WAS Willie Metcalf.
They used to call me “Doctor Meyers”
Because, they said, I looked like him.
And he was my father, according to Jack McGuire.
I lived in the livery stable,
Sleeping on the floor
Side by side with Roger Baughman’s bulldog,
Or sometimes in a stall.
I could crawl between the legs of the wildest horses
Without getting kicked—we knew each other.
On spring days I tramped through the country
To get the feeling, which I sometimes lost,
That I was not a separate thing from the earth.
I used to lose myself, as if in sleep,
By lying with eyes half-open in the woods.
Sometimes I talked with animals—even toads and snakes—
Anything that had an eye to look into.
Once I saw a stone in the sunshine
Trying to turn into jelly.
In April days in this cemetery
The dead people gathered all about me,
And grew still, like a congregation in silent prayer.
I never knew whether I was a part of the earth
With flowers growing in me, or whether I walked—
Now I know.



Of course Willie could just be a nickname of William or more significantly Will, as in free will and all that. Willie the translator is an interesting figure. He was sitting by the fire as though advised that he should wait there for someone. And yet he was startled. There he reminds me of a nervier No Name.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:47 am

@davidalan wrote:
Of course Willie could just be a nickname of William or more significantly Will, as in free will and all that. Willie the translator is an interesting figure. He was sitting by the fire as though advised that he should wait there for someone. And yet he was startled. There he reminds me of a nervier No Name.

And there just happened to be two of the irons in the fire which I think we were led to believe is how Odin rendered himself deaf. As I recall, they wanted to use them on Henry. But the point is -- they were already in the fire getting hot -- just waiting for someone else to coincidentally come along?
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:23 pm

@sandi wrote:
@Big John wrote:


From the Birthday Party Massacre


From the 2018 Deaver house


Definitely the same model. I can post other pics if needed but I did a fairly thorough examination of the scene and it is the same type of turntable. Coincidence? Probably not. I'd bet a dollar to a Penny it's the turntable from the Birthday Party Massacre  which, 60 or so years later, is currently in the Deaver house.


Maybe Rev.Deaver was Gordon/Gordie's little brother, and ultimately wound up with family belongings?  (Rev. Deaver was born in 1952 -- by the nameplate on his portrait at the church which I have to add to the timeline later.)

I think you're on to something!!!


So, as I was looking for something else within ep6, I stumbled upon the following which occurred near the beginning of the ep.



In my twisted mind, this calls into question the legitimacy of what Henry believes he is seeing in the found footage, because who knows what else NN can do beyond driving men insane when he touches things. This is somewhat reinforced by the way NN subtly facilitated Henry's discovery of it.the footage


A comment on Molly's confession to Henry - In ep 4, Henry confesses to Molly that he believes it really might have been himself who killed rev Deav. Molly, knowing different, remains silent. Her confession in ep 6 was, imo, a sign that she couldn't handle the burden of Henry's suffering anymore.

Plus, immediately following Henry's confession in ep 4, it appears as though the two of them slept together. Can't believe I missed this the first time around. I'll post some pics of it later but I have a comment to make about it now.

In ep 3, if you recall, there are several examples of how Molly can feel what Henry feels. In one scene, which takes place in young Molly's bedroom, Molly tells Henry she can feel how Henry feels when he touches his thing, and how amazing it is for him. The dialogue goes by fast and I definitely did not notice it the first time around.

Can you imagine, if she can feel that much of what Henry feels, what it would be like for her to sleep with him? I don't know if she still feels Henry that strongly anymore but if she does, how could sleeping with him effect the psyche of someone who may not be all that stable to begin with?


Moving on. Here's an overhead pic from ep 4. The Deaver church is just right of center. I believe the Happy Birthday Massacre house could be the house in the bottom right of the pic.




There are so many other things I want/need to churn up but there's only so much time in a day. Frankly, I'd rather be doing this than going about my normal day to day. Alas, no can do.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:21 pm

All this just convinces me further that Henry and No Name are tied together more deeply than anyone else in the entire world (even Trump and Putin).

I think what's on the video is genuine. I'm not sure though that even No Name knows what it's all about. So, yes, I agree there was some subtle coaxing to get Henry to look at it---and look at it fully I believe. But Henry shuts it off. Henry of course uses the video as his guide through the woods but loses power just as he earlier shut off the power. I know some of this is a device to stretch the show a little but at least the lack of finishing makes sense both in terms of character development and technology.


Oh you ask why couldn't No Name just have followed the video himself? I don't think he has enough impetus or free will to do much of anything on his own. He requires others. Most specifically Henry. The only time that No Name expresses any sort of free will is where he makes the bible quote(?) to the guard early on, and where he offers to help Ruth, and where he gets mad at Pangborn about having locked No Name in the trunk.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:49 pm

@davidalan wrote:
Oh you ask why couldn't No Name just have followed the video himself? I don't think he has enough impetus or free will to do much of anything on his own.

I didn't ask, mainly because I agree. NN is very pointed in his actions. He doesn't do a single thing unless it has some significant meaning to him.

So, to me, getting the video to play on the television was a big deal. Must have significant meaning. Not only did he show a modicum of tech awareness, which doesn't feel right, but he also selected that particular video from all the other videos through which he had been sifting. For that matter, even for him to be rummaging through the attic in such a way is a sign. That whole scene showed a fair amount of impetus/free will imo.

However, I will concede that the video is probably genuine, at least to some degree. Seems that might have been what NN was looking for in the first place since that's where his impetus laden searching culminated.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:12 pm

So you think NN chose the specific video from all the other videos or do you think he went through all of them until that one happened to be showing until Henry showed up. I wonder if he didn't just play them all. Of course they all could have been the same, generally, and he just popped the first one in. Question is how did he know how to use it. Was the same way that he started playing the piano? Memory returned when the object presented itself?


So yes there was impetus and free will in terms of an object sparking memory, and you can include the creation of the soap figure, but why doesn't he just follow the video himself, or follow Henry when Henry goes? The latest thing where NN showed impetus frankly was after the fire at Juniper Hill and then he apparently just walked back to the Deavers. Now that had purpose. So it's looks as though he is where he wants to be.


It also could have been Oh here you are as a kid on this video. Your name was mentioned to me. So now I'm watching you. I think there is some connection, but I'm still not sure NN entirely knows what it is. Or maybe he does. I wish that Hulu showed episodes in trios.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:29 pm

@davidalan wrote:
It also could have been Oh here you are as a kid on this video. Your name was mentioned to me. So now I'm watching you. I think there is some connection, but I'm still not sure NN entirely knows what it is. Or maybe he does. I wish that Hulu showed episodes in trios.

Do you remember when Henry joined the church group to get into Shawshank so Zaleski could point out No Name?

Both stand opposite close to a fence with a field between the fences. No Name quietly said Henry's name out loud before Henry told him who he was and I don't recall Zaleski saying anything to No Name about what was going on. I think No Name recognized Henry some how.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:35 pm

I believe NN was looking for that particular video. He seemed to be quickly tossing the others aside but he marveled when he came upon this one. I believe NN wanted to lead Henry into the woods and that particular video was the tool he used to do so. I believe that NN wants Henry to hear the schisma.

Not sure exactly why as of yet but you already know my theory, which is the obvious one, is that NN is Pennywise. My guess is that Pennywise wants to communicate with Henry through the schisma as opposed to through NN because Henry will not take NN as seriously as he will the schisma.

My theory is merely where the evidence leads me and the evidence is weak in supporting any given theory at this point. I could be way off, but I think it's the best we've got atm.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:20 pm

I don't know that he's Pennywise specifically, or just a phenomenon one of whose sources is Pennywise. Pennywise did have the 30yr cycle or thereabouts as No Name apparently does. So yes he could be Pennywise. I'd be disappointed. What I'd prefer is something like the SK parallel universe where elements atoms and molecules of the SK world are familiar but rearranged. Although we have a specific place like Shawshank for instance, so that alone I think adds weight to your theory, John. However, what I find right now is this is the Henry and No Name show and what one or both have stumbled into or represent. If you have a reincarnation of Pennywise, why not Randall Flagg? Or are they essentially one in the same? Evil with a different mask? I hope we get something relatively new inside of all the Easter Eggs.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:23 pm

@sandi wrote:
@davidalan wrote:
It also could have been Oh here you are as a kid on this video. Your name was mentioned to me. So now I'm watching you. I think there is some connection, but I'm still not sure NN entirely knows what it is. Or maybe he does. I wish that Hulu showed episodes in trios.

Do you remember when Henry joined the church group to get into Shawshank so Zaleski could point out No Name?

Both stand opposite close to a fence with a field between the fences.  No Name quietly said Henry's name out loud before Henry told him who he was and I don't recall Zaleski saying anything to No Name about what was going on.  I think No Name recognized Henry some how.


Frankly I don't remember No Name saying Henry's name. But that suggests that so much info and detail are accumulating that aspects from past episodes slip away. I don't remember certain aspects of the current episode as a matter of fact. What I like most stands out. Maybe I need the White Knight from Alice in Wonderland to appear in my fridge. ?
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:32 pm

NN did mutter Henry's name at the fence in the prison yard. Maybe he recognized him or maybe he figured it out. Hard to tell but either explanation could fit.

Pennywise is an ethereal being who can wear many earthly masks.  So you're not entirely wrong about things being rearranged in my opinion but it's also not quite what you want it to be either. The only things getting rearranged are the forms Pennywise chooses to take. It is said that humans are unable to understand his true form, so he appears as things we can understand like a spider or a clown. So honestly, if PW chose to become Radical Flagg he could.

If this show were about what I want it to be, Pennywise would also be the Wendigo from Pet Sematary and Castle Rock would be plane shifting like in The Talisman. I'm not gonna try to tie everything I see into that though. The evidence for other theories is much stronger. Just saying.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:05 pm

@Big John wrote:
NN did mutter Henry's name at the fence in the prison yard. Maybe he recognized him or maybe he figured it out. Hard to tell but either explanation could fit.

Just rewatched. Henry yells out to No Name, "I can be your lawyer if you want, but you have to sayi t."

NN mutters, "Henry Deaver"

No way Henry could have heard that as the distance between them is too great.

Still can't be sure what triggered NN to say that. Could have simply been when he heard the offer of the lawyer that he connected it with warden Lacy telling him to ask for Henry Deaver, as if to say that he was yet again asking for Henry Deaver in that moment. Could have been recognition of Henry too.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:19 pm

I can't find the other funeral. It might have been Lacy's funeral, not rev Deav's, but I cannot find it. I feel certain I have seen Willie and Odin in the background of another funeral. Has there been another funeral?
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:05 pm

warning warning stay off the internet (Wikipedia in particular) when trying to look for other funerals because i probably spoiled myself on a separate minor or major point.

dramatic dramatic dramatic dramatic
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:12 pm

@davidalan wrote:
I don't know that he's Pennywise specifically, or just a phenomenon one of whose sources is Pennywise. Pennywise did have the 30yr cycle or thereabouts as No Name apparently does. ...

Pennywise's cycle was self-imposed, was it not?  

No Name being dormant has nothing to do with a self-imposed cycle -- he was forcibly removed and kept prisoner.  

@davidalan wrote:
@sandi wrote:
@davidalan wrote:
It also could have been Oh here you are as a kid on this video. Your name was mentioned to me. So now I'm watching you. I think there is some connection, but I'm still not sure NN entirely knows what it is. Or maybe he does. I wish that Hulu showed episodes in trios.

Do you remember when Henry joined the church group to get into Shawshank so Zaleski could point out No Name?

Both stand opposite close to a fence with a field between the fences.  No Name quietly said Henry's name out loud before Henry told him who he was and I don't recall Zaleski saying anything to No Name about what was going on.  I think No Name recognized Henry some how.


Frankly I don't remember No Name saying Henry's name. But that suggests that so much info and detail are accumulating that aspects from past episodes slip away. I don't remember certain aspects of the current episode as a matter of fact. What I like most stands out. Maybe I need the White Knight from Alice in Wonderland to appear in my fridge. ?

I'm the same way.  I'm finishing up re-watching episode two and some of it seems like I've not seen it before.  Maybe we need to put our chess pieces in the freezer?

@Big John wrote:
I can't find the other funeral. It might have been Lacy's funeral, not rev Deav's, but I cannot find it. I feel certain I have seen Willie and Odin in the background of another funeral. Has there been another funeral?

I feel certain that I've seen Willie and Odin before but I'm not sure it was necessarily in relation to a funeral.  Maybe they were present when the Reverend's coffin was brought back to the church in the present -- like Ruth Deaver was?

@davidalan wrote:
warning warning stay off the internet (Wikipedia in particular) when trying to look for other funerals because i probably spoiled myself on a separate minor or major point.

dramatic dramatic dramatic dramatic

Thanks for the warning!
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:29 am

As for IT's 30 year dormancy and No Name's 30 year or thereabouts imprisonment, I was trying to communicate a similarity in pattern, not a similarity in intent. What this shows is a borrowing from the SK text to heighten the identity of No Name. Both appear to us in terms of a cycle.

As for Odin and Willie they may have been in the background somewhere else. Too quick to detail. But they were certainly stars in this episode. I liked them very much.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:53 am

@Big John wrote:
...
I found something. Same scene. Ep 2, scene begins at the 36:16 mark, or thereabouts. Young Molly lying in her bed fully covered by her comforter except from her eyes up. Her eyes look dilated but hard to tell.



Cop enters her room to question her. Cop's purpose is to get info from Molly which may help find Henry. Cop mentions how cold it is out there and how warm it is in here and how Henry probably needs help. At the end of the interview, Molly is still fully covered by her comforter from right up to her eyes. When the cop leaves, she removes the comforter to reveal the rest of her face.

This is what we see



The screen cap may not show it very well but in the video you can clearly see Molly's breath and it appears that she knew she could see her own breath and she was hiding it from the cop.

"When you exhale on a cold day, the ‘breath cloud’ that subsequently appears is actually water vapor condensed into small droplets of liquid water and ice. This cloud is invisible on hot days, as the warm air supplies adequate energy to the water vapor to keep it in a gaseous state.
Clearly, trying to make a breath cloud on a warm day is essentially impossible." LINK

Since it's warm in the room, we shouldn't have been able to see Molly's breath.

Do you think TPTB, just took the liberty to show it in order to reinforce that Molly experiences what Henry experiences/feels? OR -- is Molly dragging back more than just Henry's feelings with her super-connection?



@davidalan wrote:
As for IT's 30 year dormancy and No Name's 30 year or thereabouts imprisonment, I was trying to communicate a similarity in pattern, not a similarity in intent. What this shows is a borrowing from the SK text to heighten the identity of No Name. Both appear to us in terms of a cycle.

As for Odin and Willie they may have been in the background somewhere else. Too quick to detail. But they were certainly stars in this episode. I liked them very much.

I agree on Odin and Willie.

The difference in IT's dormancy and No Name's would indicate they are not one and the same, IMO.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:15 am

In the 2nd episode, we come to realize all of the Warden Lacy voice-overs actually comes from a letter he wrote Alan Pangborn. The 2nd episode transcript is up and the scene voice-overs are described so you know the context as opposed to the visuals used. But I thought I would pull all of those words together as they would have appeared to Pangborn in the letter. I don't know if it will shed any light on anything, but here it is for reference purposes.


Warden Dale Lacy's letter to Alan Pangborn



People think we're just one of those dead towns they've heard about. A run of bad luck ... worse judgment ... broken promises. We know different, don't we? (siren wailing) It's not luck. It's a plan -- and not God's, either. Remember the dog? -- the Strangler? Sure you do. How about all the others that didn't make headlines?

Nineteen sixty-one. It was the fall after they found that boy's body out by the train tracks. I took a hard hit ... almost didn't make it home. Turned out, I wasn't the one people needed to worry about. My younger brother was.

That was my first taste of what this town could do to someone. Take any house in this town. Hell, take mine! Every inch is stained with someone's sin. (sound of water running while big band music plays on the radio) I lie awake at night thinking about all the blood spilled under my roof alone. People say, "It wasn't me. It was this place." And the thing is ... they're right.

I used to get down on my knees and ask God to show me my purpose. With all the guile of hell arrayed against this town, what can one decent man do? "Let me stand athwart the doorway," I told Him. But God he doesn't take requests. So I waited for years for instructions. And then, one day one beautiful day ... God answered.

Only a few others knew those terrible things we did for our town ... for our home. And, well ... I pray they've long since forgotten.

Give a man the keys to the dungeon ... tell him to lock up the monster. Or pin a star on his chest. Call him "Sheriff." Maybe he succeeds a while -- a year, a decade or two if he's lucky -- but evil outlasts us all.

"Never again let him see the light of day." That's what God told me. He told me where to find him ... how his prison should be built ... how to put an end to all the horrors we've seen in this town.

What he didn't tell me was ... how full of doubt I would be about what we did ... or where I'd wind up in the end. I fear for this place. I fear what's to come, Alan. But I also know Castle Rock still has a defender, even in the dead of night.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:55 am

@sandi wrote:
@davidalan wrote:
Of course Willie could just be a nickname of William or more significantly Will, as in free will and all that. Willie the translator is an interesting figure. He was sitting by the fire as though advised that he should wait there for someone. And yet he was startled. There he reminds me of a nervier No Name.

And there just happened to be two of the irons in the fire which I think we were led to believe is how Odin rendered himself deaf.  As I recall, they wanted to use them on Henry.  But the point is -- they were already in the fire getting hot -- just waiting for someone else to coincidentally come along?

I missed what the two brands were for -- from this episode.

Quote :
The schisma is all I hear now.
That's why I did it.
That's why I corrected myself.
And after tonight, young Willie will be corrected, too.

So, the two brands were for Willie.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:28 am

I was struck by this image from episode 2.  It's right after they remove the dead inmate who the warden had hoped would kill No Name but wound up dying from cancer after one night with No Name.

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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:17 am

@sandi wrote:
I was struck by this image from episode 2.  It's right after they remove the dead inmate who the warden had hoped would kill No Name but wound up dying from cancer after one night with No Name.

tagged for size:
 



From the question under your picture:


I like this idea. Reaper. It's probably the same or similar to Death if you want to get technical, but I see Death as a pervasive sort of thing whereas a Reaper would be something like an agent of Death. Of course Reaper is a pretty direct allusion to The Stand where everyone dies and at least in the miniseries where the Blue Oyster Cult song "Don't Fear The Reaper" has a prominent place and SK himself apparently cites the song as the source for the entire book. As for No Name, he does do a lot of watching so the wall graffiti definitely makes sense, but the graffiti itself is staring right at the cell and the viewing audience. So if this is the case, again, he No Name an agent of evil or just part of Death's natural landscape, a mere personification? Don't know. Then I think is this Reaper's ultimate quest to meet, reunite with, or just destroy that mysterious Voice of God concealed in the woods? And again is No Name himself a vessel of the spirit of a Reaper or has he always been this way? So far I would say a vessel, maybe dispatched when the townies were drawing too close to the Voice of God? A response to the Sin of Pride? Although if the Pennywise parallel is taken to its core, this isn't the first cycle for No Name in whatever form he manifests himself, so it may go back to the notion of Place as the source of everything.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:55 am

I paused on that same prison cell image too. I didn't find anything helpful, but I miss a lot of stuff.

About Molly's breath, I think it was there to be spooky lol. I also I think tptb were showing us that she can at least feel Henry but to what extent is left open.

You are correct that it may not have been a funeral, although it seems like it. I will continue searching as time permits. Sorry you got spoiled, David. I do feel bad about that. I hate getting spoiled.

Regarding Pennywise hibernation, it isn't an exact science. It is estimated that It sleeps for approximately 27-30 years at a time and then comes back to feed for a year to a year and a half.

What's below isn't really a spoiler, but it's more PW info that relates to the show in a way that some could consider spoilerish, I guess. I'm just always afraid to give too much info cuz like I said, I've read a ton about PW and the IT lore.

Spoiler:
 

IT was set in Derry though, so that stands against my theory. Just so we're clear about what I'm thinking, I'm not sure that NN is PW in his current state, although he could be. I merely believe that in the time frame that the recent IT movie is set, NN was indeed PW.

I'm also of the opinion that Castle Rock (the show) is PW based. There is a lot that suggests it. However, I have been known to be wrong. This show may have nothing to do with PW. The only solid clue that it does is Skarsgard, and the 27 years. That's such a big one though. I just can't ignore it.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:18 pm

Yes, Skarsgard and the 27 years are the significant details. Maybe No Name is just the quieter Pennywise.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:52 pm

Actually, there is some merit to that.If PW can take many forms, e.g. humans, animals, object, surely he can leave those forms as well. Maybe the forms he leaves behind are the trail of evil he leaves in his.
wake.

There is a distinct possibility that rev Deav is the bad guy in this story and everything I'm attributing to PW is actually rev Deav. I'd actually run with that if it weren't for Skarsgard and the 27 years.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:19 pm

@davidalan wrote:
But if No Name is so bad, why even keep him alive? Maybe he's simply immortal.
I think "God" told Lacy how to imprison him, so I'm thinking if "God" had told Lacy how to kill him, he would have done that.  Since "God" didn't, Lacy didn't and I doubt if he even tried.

What do we know about No Name?  

  • His fingernails grow because there was a box of clipped nails in his cage -- so gross.
  • I've seen him eat bread, but I don't recall him eating anything else.
  • There was a chamber pot in his cell, so he had to pee and poop.
  • Although he was filthy, I find it hard to believe he went 27 years without cleaning up somehow.
  • He did have a scraggly beard, so that's either 27 years of growth or he shaved now and then.
  • I don't remember seeing him sleep.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:08 pm

I don't know if I'd focus too much on points of realism because I don't think the show will because of time constraints or having to explain too much. I'm sure Lacy gave No Name bath water when he could. The sleep detail is the most interesting to me. If he doesn't sleep ever, that may explain some of his possible lethargy. Different from he was trapped in the trunk. There he was noisy.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:55 pm

@davidalan wrote:
I don't know if I'd focus too much on points of realism because I don't think the show will because of time constraints or having to explain too much
True, but they did show us these things. And they've made a point of showing us untouched food trays a few times.

But, I do see your point about not dwelling on these things as they probably won't reveal anything.

I wonder how Lacy trapped him and was able to put him in the trunk. They didn't show that scene about the tough inmate who died from cancer after one night in a cell with No Name.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:03 pm

[quote="sandi"]
@davidalan wrote:
I wonder how Lacy trapped him and was able to put him in the trunk.  They didn't show that scene about the tough inmate who died from cancer after one night in a cell with No Name.  

Yeah. It's quite curious. Lacy talks about being told when and where to find him. It's been a constant in the narrative. Things are being left out though. Like, HOW NN was captured.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:37 pm

How NN was captured? Probably had to do with Henry.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:23 pm

Right, probably had something to do with rev Deaver too. Pretty clear they're in this up to their eyeballs, isn't it?
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:29 pm

@sandi wrote:
@davidalan wrote:
I don't know if I'd focus too much on points of realism because I don't think the show will because of time constraints or having to explain too much
True, but they did show us these things.  And they've made a point of showing us untouched food trays a few times.
Yeah, and CR is very deliberate about what they show us. They're definitely telling us something. Perhaps NN doesn't eat the same type of food as people eat. Maybe he feeds on something else.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:35 pm

@sandi wrote:
@Big John wrote:
On the kitchen floor in the final scene, none of Ruth's pills remained on the floor. There was quite a mess on the floor though. Did she have the opportunity/time to pick them all up?

Or were they crushed underfoot and are now unrecognizable?

Unlikely. There are lots of different things on the floor that aren't so severely crushed. Plus, her pills were red and white capsules. The capsules themselves aren't so easily crushed to the point of being unrecognizable, and there were several of them spread out around the floor. No sign of one or even half of one left after the struggle. Yet, the struggle occurred right where she was when NN entered her house. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss this with some general sweeping explanation.

@sandi wrote:
@Big John wrote:

Still though, the Lacy house is up for sale, right? Isn't the Lacy house what Molly showed to Gordon and his wife? Where did Mrs. Lacy go?

That's correct on both counts -- the Lacy house is for sale and that's the house Gordon and his wife visited.  I have no idea where Mrs. Lacy went.

Me neither.

Are we to assume that since she is blind that she has relocated somewhere so she can get proper care? I think she seems pretty self sufficient. Plus, to assume anything in this show is probably a mistake. Could her disappearance be part of the mystery? Maybe her departure is shown but the scene was deleted because it had no bearing on the plot.

@sandi wrote:
@Big John wrote:
Seems NN is more than just a bystander/witness/whatever that theory figured him to be. However, in all fairness, we still don't know what happened. Could be NN was hurt trying to save Ruth and whatever danger she was facing wouldn't have been present if NN hadn't been locked  away. That's the lesser of the explanations though. I still think NN is evil and is also PW, but my mind is open.

However, it is closing. The incident at Juniper Hill does not bode in his favor. Plus, once free, it seems as though he goes straight back to the Deaver house. I figure Ruth knew where Henry was taking him, but maybe not. However, the look of horror on her face when NN walked in through her back door, could speak to a large portion of her shock at seeing him. If she thought he was still a guest on her property, she might not have looked so horrified. There is a chance that she had already heard about the Juniper Hill incident on the radio or by some other means, which would also add to her horror. How did NN get back there anyway, and how long did it take?

I thought the same thing.  Another one bites the dust.  *kicks rock*

Ruth has looked at NN that way every time (to a greater or lesser degree).  I think she recognizes him in some way.  Also she mentions the suit he was wearing as being the one the Reverend was buried in.  I also think she knew he had been in her bedroom while they were gone.  Or maybe she was still seeing him there?

In an earlier episode, Ruth gave someone (Henry?) a hard time about not removing their shows. She made a point of mentioning how rev Deav hates the sound of the click clack of shoes in the house.

When NN enters through the back door, the camera purposely focused on NN slipping off his shoes. All the while Ruth stares at him as though she is seeing a ghost. I think when she sees NN she is seeing rev Deav. She's definitely been seeing things that are making her think she is flashing through time.

So yes, I am totally on board with your thought about her still seeing him there.

@sandi wrote:
@Big John wrote:

NN is going to turn Lacy's car into a monument to warden Lacy and everyone who helped put NN in that cage? This sounds like some evil vengeful shit right there. It immediately precedes what appears to be NN going back on his word to help Ruth. NN cannot be trusted, at least as far as his communication with Pangborn goes. I'm thinking that Lacy's car has a different and more meaningful purpose for NN rather than turning it into some monument. I think he's lying to Pangborn once again. I'm wondering if NN is searching for the talisman that Henry was holding, the statue as we've been calling it.

I wonder if Warden Lacy's severed head will be part of that monument?  I'm also wondering who else NN blames for helping Lacy put him in a cage?

Good question. I'm tempted to make a list but it would just be guesses.

@sandi wrote:
NN's idea of helping Ruth may be different from everyone else's.  Maybe he thinks "helping" her to die is beneficial given any suffering she currently has?

This crossed my mind as well. However, I can't seem to pull myself away from the thought that it wasn't NN that struggled with Ruth.

Okay, gonna try to breeak this down. Pangborn returns at night saying that Lacy's car will be delivered in the morning. He then asks NN then what? This backs up a thought I've been having. When NN says he can help Ruth, does Pangborn ever ask how? At this point, it looks like he never asked.

I'd certainly want to know how this freak who's been in solitary confinement for 27 years can help the love of my life. Maybe he can though, and Pangborn is desperate. He'll do just about anything to help Ruth. But, Pangborn isn't stupid either. I cannot fathom that he'd just go along with NN without a thorough explanation of how he can help, especially given that Pangborn considers NN to be a foul evil being. He's so certain that NN is evil that he told the new warden not to let that kid out. Furthermore, Pangborn was a cop for heaven's sake. He'd certainly have questions. Yet, Pangborn seems clueless. I simply don't believe Pangborn's want for Ruth to be helped would so greatly overshadow every single bit of his situational awareness.

Also, how much time has passed between NN entering through the backdoor and Pangborn's arrival at the house? The only scene separating the two is Henry's search which took at least a couple hours if not longer. Bright sunny day turned to a very dark night. So if NN came at Ruth in the kitchen right when and where she was retrieving her spilled pills, then that's probably where he incurred his wound. The blood on NN's hand looks fresh. Maybe it had been bleeding the entire time.

However, and just roll with me for a second cuz this supports NN being more of a good guy, the lack of any sign of Ruth's pills on the floor and the freshness of NN's wound lead me to wonder if NN did not attack Ruth immediately (if at all) and the scuffle in the kitchen happened more recently. Maybe NN broke out of Juniper Hill so quickly because he knew he had to get back and help Ruth by defending her from something.

And there I am saying 'attack Ruth' again, like I did in reference to the bridge suicide scene. Hmm... PW does not normally go after adults. He prefers kids because frightened flesh tastes better and kids are easier to scare.

Rev Deav could hear the schisma. He was trying to get Henry to hear it. Henry ran from him in fear.

This show is like a maze. Whenever I am confronted with solving a maze on paper, I start from the finish. Makes it so much easier. Seems to me that in this story, the finish is going to be the reveal of what happened in 1991, and then the rest will play out in 2018.

I'm going to create a scenario for the 1991 events and maybe we can figure out what might have gone on and work forward from there.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:10 am

Found 'em!

At Pangborn's speech in ep 5, the scene in which Ruth goes bungee jumping without a bungee cord, Odin & Willie (who should spin off into their own show) are in the background.



At the 26:14 mark of the epidode, the camera focuses on Henry who, for someone unknown reason, decides to turn his head and look behind. That's when we are shown the pic above. Henry has what looks to be low key eye roll reaction to seeing the two men. In other words, it appears as though he may recognize them. Henry was definitely reacting to something in that moment but hard to say what it was. I wish I could make gifs.

Actually, the way Henry reacted makes me wonder if he has seen those two before within the show. Maybe as part of the bible study group or.... something else. I only remember them from this one event but they may be in there somewhere else.

So, we know they were at Pangborn's speech as well as rev Deav's second funeral. Seems their interest, beyond being schisma whisperers, lies with the ever expanding Pangborn crew. Gonna add Odin to that group: Ruth, Rev Deav, Pangborn, Desjardins, Warden Lacy, Gordon, and now Odin.

Also, could what Molly hears be related to the schisma? She thinks she has a medical condition, or so she says, but could it instead be a connection to the schisma?


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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:26 am

I am developing a brand spankin new theory, or at least relatively new, based on some of the PW lore I recently came across. It actually would have NN as a sort of spectator/guardian, fitting in with your description of him, David. Your ideas are close enough, without being dead on, that I'm wondering if you based your theory on anything beyond what you've seen in the show and your own desire for the show's direction.

Not sure I want to bring this to light here though, because the info I've gathered is not driven by the show itself. It's not found in any spoilers either. Just wiki style info that lines up well. I suppose I could spoiler tag it but honestly, how could anyone following this thing resist looking at it when the info is right there.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:16 am

@Big John wrote:
However, and just roll with me for a second cuz this supports NN being more of a good guy, the lack of any sign of Ruth's pills on the floor and the freshness of NN's wound lead me to wonder if NN did not attack Ruth immediately (if at all) and the scuffle in the kitchen happened more recently. Maybe NN broke out of Juniper Hill so quickly because he knew he had to get back and help Ruth by defending her from something.

There were others that escaped from Juniper Hill. It's possible one or more followed NN back to the Deaver house and is/are responsible for the "scuffle in the kitchen".

And not only have we not seen Ruth in relation to the kitchen scene -- we haven't seen Wendell either.

(Nice catch on NN removing his shoes. That was Henry who Ruth was reminding earlier -- Rev didn't like the click-clack of shoes.)

@Big John wrote:
Rev Deav could hear the schisma. He was trying to get Henry to hear it. Henry ran from him in fear.

I may be wrong, but I think that home video showed Henry as the one who could hear the schisma -- not the Reverend. The Rev wanted Henry to take him to the source of the sound.

@Big John wrote:
Actually, the way Henry reacted makes me wonder if he has seen those two before within the show. Maybe as part of the bible study group or.... something else. I only remember them from this one event but they may be in there somewhere else.

I think you are right. I'll keep my eyes out going forward on my re-watch.

@Big John wrote:
So, we know they were at Pangborn's speech as well as rev Deav's second funeral. Seems their interest, beyond being schisma whisperers, lies with the ever expanding Pangborn crew. Gonna add Odin to that group: Ruth, Rev Deav, Pangborn, Desjardins, Warden Lacy, Gordon, and now Odin.

I think they are definitely after Henry (and now they have him). I think perhaps Henry may be a special schisma "receiver" and they need him.

@Big John wrote:
Also, could what Molly hears be related to the schisma? She thinks she has a medical condition, or so she says, but could it instead be a connection to the schisma?

TPTB could connect it to the schisma as it might serve their purpose, but I would buy into it not being connected and being a paranormal gift, standing on its own.

@Big John wrote:
Not sure I want to bring this to light here though, because the info I've gathered is not driven by the show itself. It's not found in any spoilers either. Just wiki style info that lines up well. I suppose I could spoiler tag it but honestly, how could anyone following this thing resist looking at it when the info is right there.

I think you should definitely share your theory. There's no need to spoiler tag anything since you are not working with known advance knowledge. Just mention the source for any info and that should suffice.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:05 am

@Big John wrote:
Are we to assume that since she is blind that she has relocated somewhere so she can get proper care? I think she seems pretty self sufficient. Plus, to assume anything in this show is probably a mistake. Could her disappearance be part of the mystery? Maybe her departure is shown but the scene was deleted because it had no bearing on the plot

There were boxes around when Henry visited Martha Lacy which indicates she was packing up, so her move was planned. She also warmed to Henry when he said he had a client suing the same company that Warden Lacy's pension was through. I'm thinking she won't be getting any of his pension and she's unhappy about it. And I think she would stay in her home if she could afford it financially. She was comfortable there and the neighbors looked out for her.

Which makes me wonder -- Lacy was set for a six figure retirement plus his pension. It looks like Mrs. Lacy isn't getting any of that and so I have to wonder why he would leave her in that financial shape? Has "God" continued to talk to him? Did "God" tell him to take his own life? Did "God" tell Lacy to tell No Name to ask for Henry Weaver?
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:40 pm

@sandi wrote:
There were boxes around when Henry visited Martha Lacy which indicates she was packing up, so her move was planned.  She also warmed to Henry when he said he had a client suing the same company that Warden Lacy's pension was through.  I'm thinking she won't be getting any of his pension and she's unhappy about it.  And I think she would stay in her home if she could afford it financially.  She was comfortable there and the neighbors looked out for her.

Wow, Nice work. Great eye for detail.

@sandi wrote:
Lacy was set for a six figure retirement plus his pension.  It looks like Mrs. Lacy isn't getting any of that and so I have to wonder why he would leave her in that financial shape?  Has "God" continued to talk to him?  Did "God" tell him to take his own life?  Did "God" tell Lacy to tell No Name to ask for Henry Deaver?

Yeah, it is rather curious about how much of what Lacy did was from instructions he 'heard'.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:03 pm

Question: Is Henry's memory loss only of the 11 days he was missing or does he remember nothing of his life prior to his rescue?
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:08 pm

@Big John wrote:
Question: Is Henry's memory loss only of the 11 days he was missing or does he remember nothing of his life prior to his rescue?

He remembers nothing prior to his rescue.

I rewatched that "has it begun scene" from episode 3.

Quote :
Henry gets to talk to NN for the first time. Henry is telling him what is happening and at one point asks NN if he understands. This is the first time NN says anything.

NN: Has it begun?

Henry looks puzzled but then continues talking about their strategy. Henry says, "... Turn this place into your boat garage."

NN: boats?

Henry: (chuckles) That's right.
NN: How many years old are you?
Henry: Thirty-nine.
NN: Do you hear it now?

[door buzzes, opens] GUARD: Time's up.

IMO, NN expected Henry to understand what he meant by "Has it begun?" I'm thinking this is something NN communicated with 11 year old Henry.

And then NN asks -- Do you hear it now? That takes on a whole new meaning since the last episode.

I think 11 year old Henry was definitely in NN's company at some point back then.
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Big John

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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:49 pm

If Henry has no memory prior to being rescued, that means he has no memory of his father.For Henry, his father is a dead relative he never met. I only realized this today. That should have been in my thoughts the whole time. I feel rather stupid for not being on top of this.

Henry doesn't know his father.
Henry has no memory of ever interacting with his father.
Henry grew up without his father.
Henry's bio father is not Reverend Deaver.
Henry moved out of Castle Rock at what may have been his first opportunity.
Henry just doesn't seem to care. He'd just as soon wash his hands of the whole place.He even wants to get his mother to leave the place.

Yet, Henry seems to have a lot of concern for his father's remains, especially regarding where they are buried. That's very important to him. He goes to some great lengths to get his father back into the church grounds. I suppose it's easy just to say that Henry has a strong belief system about burial but... does he? Is that really all this is? It's suspicious to say the least.
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sandi

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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:01 pm

@Big John wrote:
Yet, Henry seems to have a lot of concern for his father's remains, especially regarding where they are buried. That's very important to him. He goes to some great lengths to get his father back into the church grounds. I suppose it's easy just to say that Henry has a strong belief system about burial but... does he? Is that really all this is? It's suspicious to say the least.

You're absolutely right. I have to think about that some more.
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Big John

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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:12 pm

Below is my new theory. I have posted a lot of sourced material to go with it. Lotsa reading. I'll try to summarize the sourced material for simplicity's sake as well as lay out my theory, which will become self explanatory as you continue reading.

The SK books and movies have some crossover characters. Two of them are Maturin and Gan.

Maturin is a sort of cosmic turtle who exists in the macroverse. He got a tummy ache one day and he barfed up the universe. Maturin is oft described as a gentle grandfatherly type who withdrawals into his shell for long periods of time. He appears in IT mainly as a bystander and sometime adviser.

Gan is more like God. Much more powerful than Maturin. Gan intervenes in the battle between the Loser's Club and IT, helping The Loser's Club defeat IT.

My new theory is that in this particular story, Maturin has taken on a human form. We have been calling that form No Name. Same for Gan. The form Gan took on in 1991 is Henry. I don't think Gan currentlyinhabits Henry but may come to do so once again, and soon.

I don't yet have any answers to the smaller mysteries. Also, as a side note, I read IT when it first came out over 30 years ago. I have zero recollection of Maturin or Gan.

Now, not everything in the timelines of these characters fits perfectly.However, not everything regarding the timelines of events in the show fit perfectly with their corresponding timelines in the SK universe.

I'll stop here with my conjecture before I begin confusing myself.

Below is a wiki break down of IT, Maturin, and Gan.

Quote :
It (Referred to as IT) is an ancient alien/eldritch monster and the title character and main antagonist of the 1986 novel the same name (and subsequent television and film adaptations). It is a shapeshifting creature known as a Glamour and is billions of years old. Although it lived on planet Earth for years, it originated in a void/dimension outside the regions of space known as the Macroverse. Since its true identity is unclear, due to its shape-changing abilities making its real name and species unknown, the creature is just named IT.

It can morph into any other person, animal, or object (including combinations thereof). This ability is useful for A) appearing as the target's loved ones or friends to lure them into a trap or B) appearing as the target's fear. However, It’s favorite and most common form is that of a circus performer named "Pennywise the Dancing Clown". It’s real name (if indeed, it has one) is unknown. Although, several times in the novel, It calls itself by the name Robert “Bob” Gray.

It’s primary goal is to feed on humans, generally preferring children than adults since they were easier to scare. According to the creature, frightened flesh tastes better.

Contents[show]
Appearance
No one knows the true form of It since it exists in an inter-dimensional realm referred to as "deadlights". Bill Denbrough comes close to see the "deadlights", but defeats It before this happens. The true form of the "deadlights" exists outside the physical realm. Any living being that sees the "deadlights" goes insane almost instantly. Bill comes dangerously close to seeing the deadlights and the shape behind the shape for a brief moment. He described It as an endless, crawling hairy creature made of orange light.

Throughout the novel, It is generally referred to as male, however, late in the novel, the characters come to realize that It is most likely female, due to its true form, in the physical realm, being that of a giant pregnant female spider. This revelation prompts Audra Denbrough to say "Oh dear Jesus, IT is female." This, however, is not It's real true form, it's just the closest representation of it in our universe. Due to It being pregnant, it’s very possible that a male of the same species as It existed at one time.

Personality/Behavior
It is not a well understood entity in that what it truly is.

The reasons behind Its actions is that it eats for its own survival and satisfaction and then it goes dormant usually after a year's worth of feeding. It is a deadly predator that primarily hunts for food. But only if it can scare its prey before feasting on it.

The novel explains that Its only goals are to eat and sleep.

Images
Harassment
The core crux of the story is It, as Pennywise, hunting the "Loser's Club". Rather than killing them quickly, it prefers to frighten and taunt them (which ultimately leads to its downfall). It is psychologically adept, knowing what emotional vulnerabilities to provoke for any person.

Manipulation
While feral-minded and instinct-driven, It is more than capable of acting in any manner needed to lure prey, from subliminal influence to promising desires. Its energy keeps the town prosperous in exchange for the complacency of adults to keep it from being discovered.

The form of Pennywise provides a disarming personality and appearance, especially towards children. As Pennywise, It is merry, charming, and funny, politely offering others the chance to visit his circus and eat free food.

This succeeds in bringing Georgie close enough to a storm drain to kill him. Henry Bowers also falls for Pennywise's commands. He kills his own father, his friends, and is later used, as an adult, to murder the grown-up "Loser's Club".

It can also control minds. It is shown in the novel, miniseries, and film that the creature has the adults in the town of Derry, Maine under a mind control where they don't seem to care about the children that mysteriously go missing in the town. They also seem to not have any care of when something truly terrifying or cruel is happening, even if it's happening right in front of them. It looks like they just ignore it.

Narcissism
In the novel, It describes itself as the superior being (only the turtle spirit being close and Gan being his only true superior) and humans as mere "toys" that exist only to be messed with and eaten. But, when continually defeated by children, It acts surprised and begins to question if he really is as superior as he thought. However, it never feels that the individual children are strong enough to defeat it.

Hunger
By the looks of it, It seems to be a natural eating machine, due to the inborn impulse of its species. It’s instincts are to eat for survival, and also its own pleasure, as it seems to almost always feel hunger when being awake.

It's favorite meal on Earth are human beings. However, It prefers to kill and devour children rather than adults, mainly because children's fears are easier to interpret in a physical form and thus fill with terror. Fear "floods the body and salts the meat", according to It. It can devour someone even if they aren't feeling afraid, but It chooses not to, because the person will not taste well to It.

It's unknown what It was feeding on while living in the Macroverse, before arriving on Earth. Though given its self-proclaimed status as "The Eater of Worlds", it most likely lived a nomad and interdimensonal parasite, draining one world after another of it's resources to fuel it's enormous apetite and leaving nothing but lifeless worlds in its wake.

Self-Preservation
Despite being a fearsome creature, It was certainly not fearless. At the first sign of being overpowered, it would always quickly retreat. It had been shown begging for mercy and bargaining for its own survival in its true physical form. The novel also explains that, during the summer of 1958, The Loser's Club made It fear them. It also had thoughts later on in the novel about not being as powerful as it had always thought.

2017 adaption
In the newest iteration of the character, it is implied that It actually needs its prey to fear it to be able to kill and eat them while previous versions just needed it to make the meat taste better. When confronting Beverly, It left her alive but paralyzed because she did not fear It. It is also implied that its loses some of its power when it cannot frighten its victims as the Loser's club actually manage to physically and brutally beat it into a corner despite only being children and It having previously demonstrated superhuman strength was unable to overpower them.

Also unlike It's previous adaption, It is barely able to pass for human or even act human when in its Pennywise form as while trying to lure Georgie, he laughs with him at first before suddenly stopping and staring blankly and drooling with barely contained hunger, which unnerved Georgie enough that he was about to leave before It quickly remined him about the Boat and managed to snatch him.

Origins
It originated in an undiscovered void containing and surrounding our entire Universe, a place referred to as the "Macroverse." (A concept related to Todash Darkness from The Dark Tower Novels).

Other evidence from this series suggests It is the creation of a separate omnipotent creator referred to as "the Other" (who may be the entity Gan). This "Other" helps the defeat of it at the end, and may also be responsible for the creation of "The Turtle", who is IT's natural enemy. In It the novel, the Turtle refers to It as his "brother".

It may be one of, or a Twinner of, the six greater demon elementals mentioned by Mia in Song of Susannah (as the Spider is not one of the Beam Guardians).

It's possible that there are other creatures of the same species as It, due to the fact that it is revealed to be pregnant.

History
IT arrived on Earth in a massive cataclysmic event similar to an asteroid impact, landing in a location in North America that would eventually become Derry, Maine.

Once people settled over this location, it adopted a pattern of a 27-30 year hibernation, waking to kill and eat. Each awakening and return to hibernation is marked by a violent act, such as a mass murder or weather event. In the period between, a series of child murders occurring in Derry are never solved. It is outwardly explained that a series of murders, no matter how gruesome, don't get reported if they happen in a small town. However, the real reason is that the influence of IT prevents anyone investigating too deeply.

Timeline (novel)
1715 – 1716: IT painfully awakes.
1740 – 1743: IT starts a three-year reign of terror that culminates in the disappearance of over three hundred settlers from Derry Township (similar to the lost Roanoke Colony, which was founded as a logging town.
1769 – 1770: IT awakes again.
1851: IT awakes when a man named John Markson poisons his own family, then commits suicide by eating a white nightshade mushroom, causing an excruciating death.
1876 – 1879: IT awakes, then returns to hibernation after murdering a group of lumberjacks who were later found near the Kenduskeag Stream.
1904: IT awakes when a lumberjack named Claude Heroux murders a dozen of men in a bar with just one ax. Heroux was promptly pursued by a mob of townsfolk and hanged.
1906: IT returns to hibernation when the Kitchener Ironworks explode, killing 108 people, 88 of whom were children at an Easter egg hunt.
1929: IT awakes when a group of Derry citizens ambushes and kills the Bradley Gang, a group of robbers and murderers. The town, including it's police chief, pretends it never happened. However, a witness later recounts the tale to Mike Hanlon, including seeing a clown in farmer's attire participating in the slaying.
1930: IT returns to hibernation when the Maine Legion of White Decency, a Northern counterpart to the Ku Klux Klan, burns down "The Black Spot", a nightclub known to cater to African-Americans at the nearby army base[note 1]. IT appears at the location as a giant bird with balloons on it's wings.
1957: IT awakes when Dorsey Corcoran is beaten to death by his stepfather, Richard Macklin. In October, Georgie Denbrough dies from blood loss, when his arm is torn off by Pennywise. This prompts Bill Denbrough (Georgie's older brother) to investigate, leading to the discovery of IT. He, along with several other victims of IT's torment, performs the Ritual of Chüd, which wounds IT and forces it to return to an early hibernation.
1984: IT awakes when three bullies assault Adrian Mellon and Don Hagarty, a homosexual couple. The bullies throw Mellon off a bridge and IT, in the form of Pennywise, attacks and kills him.
1985: IT is finally killed (presumably) in another Ritual of Chüd by the adult Bill, Richie, Beverly, Eddie, and Ben.
2000: IT awakens when Mike Hanlon beats up Bill Denbrough after Bill refuses to burn Georgie Denbrough's picture book.
In the 1990 adaptation, events occur slightly later, with Georgie's disappearance occurring in 1960 and IT's death in 1990.
Source


Quote :
Biography
A Turtle of massive size with an ancient appearance, Maturin existed long before the creation of the mainstream universe in Stephen King's novels. By nature, Maturin is kind, wise, loving, gentle, compassionate and benevolent, having a very grandfather-like demeanor when speaking to humans. Maturin is said to be constantly withdrawn into his shell, sleeping and rarely ever coming out for anything. One of the occasions that Maturin did come out of his shell was when he had a stomachache which caused him to vomit out the mainstream universe, after which he promptly retreated back into his shell. Because of this, It (a creature that existed in the void within the Macroverse and was an adversary of Maturin, described by the latter as his "brother") considered the Turtle to be old, lazy, and stupid. However, given his vast amount of wisdom, power, and the aid he has provided to those in need of it, It's perceptions of the Turtle seem to be false.

In It, Maturin seems to serve largely as a spectator to the events that unfold in the battle between It and the Losers' Club. Maturin only involves himself to advise the young Bill Denbrough during the Ritual of Chüd in 1958, while Gan provided the Losers with most of their strength.
Source


Quote :
Gan also known as God or the Other is the creative overforce in the cosmology of Stephen King's universes. King's inspiration for the word remains unknown, but he may have taken it from a Hebrew word, which means, "garden." Gan's role in the novels is very much in line with the concept of God.

Power
Gan is almighty, being far stronger than It and the Turtle.

Overview
The being is first mentioned by name in Song of Susannah, the sixth installment in The Dark Tower series. He is described as speaking "through the voices of the can-calah, who men call angels," and as "denying the Crimson King and denying Discordia itself."

In the cosmology of the Stephen King multiverse, Gan is that which the High Speech term "The White" refers to. Gan rose from the Prim (inferred to as the darkness behind everything) and created the universes and infinite alternate universes that the Dark Tower (the central universe in The Dark Tower series) holds in place.

Within the fictional cosmology of King's multiverse, it is implied that Gan not only created the various universes where Stephen King novels take place, but also the real world universe where the real Stephen King writes his books and real world readers read them. It is also implied in The Dark Tower series that Gan uses the real world Stephen King as a facilitator (shown in The Dark Tower VI: Song of Susannah) to tell the tale of the Gunslinger, so that the Gunslinger could successfully go about his task of reaching the Dark Tower; had the author died before completing his task, all of King's multiverses would have ceased to exist (as there would be no story created). The Gunslinger would not have "known" how to further proceed on his quest to the Dark Tower and, without any significant remaining opposition, the Crimson King would have eventually destroyed the entire Stephen King multiverse (including the real world universe of the readers of Stephen King books) by finally toppling the Dark Tower.

It is unknown at the current time if Gan is the creator of such all-powerful artifacts (that exist on other worlds/story settings in the Stephen King cosmology) as the Talisman and the Dark Tower, or if these items are actually lesser or greater aspects of Gan itself. Nor is it known whether or not the various instances of "God" that occur in such Stephen King novels as Desperation, Insomnia, and The Stand are appearances of Gan or "merely" the gods of those particular levels of the Tower, and created by Gan as well.

In the final book of The Dark Tower series, Roland suggests that Gan is in fact the tower itself, that the tower is a living creature and the physical embodiment of Gan.
Source
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    

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