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 Castle Rock - HULU

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sandi

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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:12 pm

I transcribed Rev. Deaver's tapes that were played in episode 9.  I'm going to post them here all together.  You might find something interesting in them.  I also included a scene between Molly and nnHenry which happened between recordings.

I am struck by the fact that Molly who continued to live in her parent's house next to the Deaver's house, did not pick up anything from adHenry during the 27.63 years Rev. Deaver kept him in an open-air cage in his basement.  She may have tuned out the Reverend -- but she didn't pick up anything on adHenry.  (I'm thinking that thought patterns or waves are different in different timelines.  Molly was only able to see/hear adHenry when she touched him.)

Here are the transcriptions:

S01E09 nnHenry's timeline

Opening Scene:  Rev. Matthew Deaver's voice overplays tragic scenes and finally, Rev. Deaver (in his basement) building a cage.
[DISTANT SIRENS WAIL]
REVEREND MATTHEW DEAVER:  God turned His back on this place.  - [SIRENS WAILING]  [TRAIN WHISTLE BLOWS]  - Abandoned us that's what people say.  Or they say He's punishing us for our sins, like Sodom and Gomorrah.  You remember the helicopter crash.  - [TRAIN WHISTLE BLOWS] - How about the school bus? People say, "It wasn't me!"  "It was this place." [SIRENS WAILING] And the thing is -- they're right.
When I was a boy my mother told me a story [BABY CRYING] about resurrection.  She was young, alone and convinced the Devil had a hold of me.bb[CRYING] And maybe he did.  [CRYING CONTINUES] Or maybe he had a hold of my mother.  (Mother presses hard edge of hangar over baby's neck and holds it there.)  [CRYING STOPS] - But then a miracle happened.  [BABY RESUMES CRYING] The Lord ... He saved both of us that day.  He brought me back from the dead, like His only son.  
I dedicated the rest of my life to His grace --  to fighting this great battle -- to hearing His voice.  "Let me stand athwart the door," I told Him.  But God, He doesn't take requests.
So I waited for years for instructions.  And then one day one terrible day ... God answered.


Scene:  nnHenry is inside the Deaver home and notices a tape recorder.  He turns it on and Rev. Deaver's voice is heard.
REVEREND MATTHEW DEAVER:  ... forest fires took near 1,000 acres.  The drunk helicopter pilot who killed ... [FASTFORWARDING TAPE] ... and in the town plaza.  The school bus and all those sweet children died on the track.


Scene:  nnHenry removes tape which is dated, "1437."  (Divided by 52 equals 27.63 years.)  nnHenry goes out to the garage where he finds boxes of earlier tapes.  And he starts playing them.
REVEREND MATTHEW DEAVER:  This has been a curse since the beginning, since those original French settlers froze and starved 200 years ago.  The only survivor, a young girl, reduced to cutting up and eating the corpses of her own family.  Is that when it began?
[CHANGES TAPE]
REVEREND MATTHEW DEAVER:  God turned His back on this place.  Abandoned us.  That's what people say.  Or they say He's punishing us --
[CHANGES TAPE]
REVEREND MATTHEW DEAVER:  What if it's not just one voice, but a choir? [TAPE SPOOLS] [VOICES OVERLAPPING] (nnHenry repeatedly changes taps and we hear overlapping voices and tape spooling.)  Toward the end of the worst of it ... the bad patch ... that we had that spring.  Oh, sweet Lord in heaven -- Spent hours out there every night in those damn woods praying ... tryin' to hear it.  Thought if I could hear Him again just once ... He'd tell me how to end this--end the bad patch.  But He didn't.  Or I couldn't hear Him -- I just wasn't listening hard enough.
 
But then I did hear something.I heard something at the back door, this scritch-scratching, somethin' trying to get in. This being a bad patch, I pull my Louisville Slugger out of the closet, throw open that back door, and there he was.  He looks at me.  He looks at the bat, just as scared as can be.  Looks caught.  Can you blame him? He's between a man with a bat and those woods he just came from.  Well, I'll tell ya, he wasn't the only one scared.  I promise you -- I reached for the phone, I-I was gonna call the police -- Child Service -- the cavalry -- and then he starts saying, "I heard it, Dad.  It was so loud, Dad.  It was all around us, in my head, and it was too much.  And then you were gone, and then I was gone, and I woke up in the forest, but suddenly there was no more snow, and then I walked into town and it looked different.  Castle Rock -- but different.  And not one person in town knew me."
 
That's what he said, not making a lick of sense, and then he tells me a story.  He says he's my son ...  Henry ... adopted.  He tells me a story that the two of us went to pray in Castle Woods, that we were out there, he says, to listen for Him.  And he heard it.  He said he'd really heard it.  No foolin' this time.  None of his mother's trickery and deceit.  And there, right here, he caught me, because who would know that?  Who could possibly know that that woman tried to trick me?  Did I test him more?  Of course I did.  I asked him how I like my eggs cooked over the propane stove.  The name we gave to the bend and the view -- he knew it.  He knew it all.  And it--it felt like redemption.  Like he'd been returned to me.  Changed, but the same -- restored.  My sweet Henry back to me at last.
 
And it was then I realized what I'd done.  I'd wished not prayed, wished.  Desired for this.  Yes, this.  And here it was like I'd ordered it off the damn TV.  Well, we know just who that is, don't we?  Who gives you what you wish when you need it most, with just a string or three attached?  I'd been bought bought cheap.  This was no son of mine


.  
Scene:  While the tape is playing, nnHenry goes down into the basement and sits in the cage adHenry occupied.  nnHenry has visions of adHenry sitting in that same spot, drawing his fingers through the dirt.  Light bulb coming on -- cage rattling.  The scene shifts to Henry back upstairs -- now with Molly, listening to a tape.
REVEREND MATTHEW DEAVER:  In the blindness of desire and my naked want I'd invited in the Deceiver.
[Henry turns the tape off.]

MOLLY STRAND:  I was just down the hill from him this whole time.  I knew what he was like.  That's why I just tuned him out.
NO NAME:  The stuff he said the kid told him about my mom -- how she would tell me to lie about hearing God in the woods to get him off my back.  That happened.
MOLLY STRAND:  What are you saying?
NO NAME:  I don't know.
MOLLY STRAND:  Ohh.  But Henry ... listen to me.  Those things that he talked about ... the helicopter going down -- the school bus crash -- they happened decades ago.
[nnHenry hands Molly another tape.]
NO NAME:  They go up to the 1400s.
MOLLY STRAND:  So he recorded this one ... No, but that kid can't be more than 12.  (Molly plays the tape nnHenry handed her.)

REVEREND MATTHEW DEAVER:  There he stayed for years, so many years, and I grew old and even lonelier.  There were moments when I was weak.  We shared Christmases in that basement -- Red Sox victories.  I taught him to carve perfect figurines from soap as I once did with my own boy.  And yes, of course, I almost let him out.  Many times.  Almost surrendered to his story, his charms.  I suppose if someone is listening to this, maybe even Henry -- my Henry -- then you know I finally did ... surrender.  But you listen to me, son.  As long as that devil walks the streets of Castle Rock, tragedy after tragedy will pile up and men will turn on their own.  Blood will run in the streets until he is back ... in a cage.
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sandi

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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:20 pm

@The Ricksters wrote:
Yes, I remember Ruth lost a baby, not sure at what point of the pregnancy.  I remember a character on the show said that is why they adopted , because the loss was too hard on Ruth or she couldnt go thru that again.

This was a great catch, TR!  I searched back and found the scene.

S01E06
Deaver House - night - Henry enters Wendell's bedroom
HENRY DEAVER:  Hey.  Sorry, I had to run out.  Get some sleep.
WENDELL DEAVER:  You were, like, six when you were adopted, right?
HENRY DEAVER:  Five.
WENDELL DEAVER:  Why didn't they have their own kid?
HENRY DEAVER:  They tried.  They lost a baby during labor.  I guess they ... I guess they didn't want to go down that road again.


NOTE: Rev. Deaver in his tapes talks about "my Henry", knowing that adHenry was adopted. I think that if "his" Henry had been adopted, he would have said something to that effect or referenced it. I'm not sure. Although we can't be 100% certain, it does look like nnHenry is the biological son of his Ruth and Rev Deaver.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:27 pm

Thanks for posting the transcripts, sandi,  that's a lot of work.  

Rev Deaver and Lacy were both ignorant self-righteous fanatics who took it upon themselves to save the world from this "evil".  I wonder what would have happened if they let people with actual intelligence and maybe with some scientific background  examine and study these kids? Could they have uncovered the schisma and found a solution?    Odin was a nutcase and an extremist, too,  but at least he approached it scientifically.  I wonder if others could have too?   Did Odin keep notes?  Is there a corresponding Odin in the other universe?
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:54 pm

yes thanks sandi. certain things were make clearer. particularly the math.

speaking of whether there's another odin, in the Henry Deaver episode i kept looking for people in the town square crowd. i thought maybe that's jackie's blond hair! but no. she interests me as more than an incidental player. but i could be easily wrong. molly ends up in both timeframes. rev deaver. ruth and pangborn. the shawshank guard but as a (more vital) police officer. so why not jackie? why not everybody?
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:59 pm

david wrote:
so why not jackie? why not everybody?

The ripple effect of just one choice can make big differences. For example, Lacy is could be retired with full pension and buyout -- he and his now -- not blind wife could be on a beach somewhere enjoying a cool drink.

Speaking of Odin, was he skewered with a red-handled screwdriver? --- like the one Ruth was trying to open the safe or something with?


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sandi

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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:07 pm

Wait a minute! It just occurred to me -- young Molly killed adHenry's father Rev Deaver during the time adHenry was missing. She later describes it to adult adHenry and says she felt like they were one person -- her connection to him was so great. And she acted as adHenry as he hated his father so much.

adHenry was in a cage in Rev. Deaver's basement in nnHenry's timeline at the time Molly was pulling the trach out of Rev. Deaver's neck. That's means the connection between them was so strong -- even an alternate reality couldn't sever it.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:07 pm


The ripple effect of just one choice can make big differences. For example, Lacy is could be retired with full pension and buyout -- he and his now -- not blind wife could be on a beach somewhere enjoying a cool drink.

Speaking of Odin, was he skewered with a red-handled screwdriver? --- like the one Ruth was trying to open the safe or something with?



That's true. Ruth and Pangborn are in Florida. By that logic, anyone could be anywhere.

I thought Odin was killed by one of the items that was in the fire. Maybe? Maybe not?
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sandi

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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:10 pm

david wrote:
I thought Odin was killed by one of the items that was in the fire. Maybe? Maybe not?

I don't know -- I thought the implement had a red handle. I'll check it tomorrow -- too tired tonight.

We posted at the same time. I have a post above yours, I would like your take on it.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:14 pm

@sandi wrote:
Wait a minute!  It just occurred to me -- young Molly killed adHenry's father Rev Deaver during the time adHenry was missing.  She later describes it to adult adHenry and says she felt like they were one person -- her connection to him was so great.  And she acted as adHenry as he hated his father so much.

adHenry was in a cage in Rev. Deaver's basement in nnHenry's timeline at the time Molly was pulling the trach out of Rev. Deaver's neck.  That's means the connection between them was so strong -- even an alternate reality couldn't sever it.


The bold part is serious.

I think the child Molly had some doings in or near the Schisma. I think others have speculated on this before. Could she have gone there when it was inactive? Or was it she herself who fired the shot that killed her older version? While trying to protect Henry. She wouldn't have known who any of those other people were.

I wonder now if the men with the bloodhounds were part of the young Henry Deaver search party.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:24 pm

david wrote:
Could she have gone there when it was inactive?

I haven't gone back through posts yet so, I don't if there was any talk about there being a cycle to that spot, making it possible to travel between the two realities?

I think there is. Look at what adHenry said when he was trying to get into the woods in this episode.

adHenry: We have to go. To the woods. There's not much time left.

Rev. Deaver's last tape places adHenry in the cage 27 plus years. We know nnHenry was in Lacy's cage for 27 years. Seems like it's time for nnHenry to go home.

As far as young Molly firing the shot -- where would she get the gun from?

david wrote:
I wonder now if the men with the bloodhounds were part of the young Henry Deaver search party.
I'll take another look at that tomorrow. I thought I saw prison guards but I could be wrong.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:25 pm

And yes, the bold part is serious. That's a strong bond. And unfortunately for nnHenry, his Molly is likely dead.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:30 pm

Oh oh oh!  I forgot -- I found this treasure.

Remember when adult adHenry visits the spot where Lacy died ...

S01E01

CASTLE ROCK LAKE/HENRY ARRIVES ON THE BLUFF WHERE WARDEN LACY COMMITTED SUICIDE/THERE'S AN INFORMAL MEMORIAL AGAINST ONE OF THE TREES/HENRY PICKS UP A TEDDY BEAR FROM THE ITEMS LEFT THERE/HENRY'S BREATH CAN BE SEEN AND WHEN HE LOOKS UP, SEES SNOW FALLING/HENRY TURNS TOWARDS THE LAKE AND STARTS WALKING TO THE EDGE OF THE BLUFF/PANGBORN'S WORDS FROM HENRY'S RESCUE IN 1991 PLAY OVER THE SCENE:  Shhh it!  Said it was minus-forty last night.  You know how cold that is?  Freeze to death in an hour.  And you've been gone for eleven days.  So what happened out there?/BY THE TIME HENRY REACHES THE BLUFF'S EDGE THE GROUND IS COVERED WITH SNOW/THE CAMERA DRAWS BACK AND WE SEE THE BACK OF WHAT LOOKS LIKE YOUNG HENRY DEAVER STARING AT THE BACK OF ADULT HENRY DEAVER/HENRY SEEMS TO FEEL SOMEONE IS WATCHING/HE LOOKS BACK OVER HIS SHOULDER BUT NO ONE IS THERE AND THE SNOW IS NOW ALL GONE.

Given what young adHenry saw -- the colonial girl with a knife -- the bloodhounds -- etc. -- I'm betting he saw his future self either when he left his timeline or going back.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:37 pm

I'm so sad that this week's episode is the finale. I don't want it to end this soon.

I'm super tired. I'll be back tomorrow. Sleep
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:41 am

Now that we have nine episodes to play with and not just one or two or three, earlier more puzzling moments emerge perhaps with greater clarity. I'm thinking of the knife at the strange birthday party (which I still don't know if it was a past memory, or occurring in the present) that No Name fixated on. Well maybe No Name was remembering a little of the knife the girl from 200 years in the past was holding in the schisma. Way back then I still don't think he was putting enough of the pieces together, but the birthday party knife ended up being a sign post back to some degree of memory and reality. Molly of course was a human version of this. Being around this Molly led No Name to remember that Molly (and her death).

For those with Hulu, midnight between Tuesday and Wednesday the last episode should drop. It is then that I will be able to use the minor spoiler I got from the Wikipedia page. I'm surprised at myself that I haven't thought about it much and have pretty much stayed within each episode. But once the final episode airs, I'm sure there will be all sorts of yummy illumination. At least I hope so.

This has been a wonderful series. I wish it could have lasted a little longer.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:12 am

@sandi wrote:
david wrote:
I thought Odin was killed by one of the items that was in the fire. Maybe? Maybe not?

I don't know -- I thought the implement had a red handle.  I'll check it tomorrow -- too tired tonight.

We posted at the same time.  I have a post above yours, I would like your take on it.

You're right, david.  It wasn't a screwdriver, it was "one of the items in the fire".




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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:15 am

david wrote:
I wonder now if the men with the bloodhounds were part of the young Henry Deaver search party.
I'll take another look at that tomorrow.  I thought I saw prison guards but I could be wrong.
[/quote]


not prison guards but prisoners -- image tagged for size:
 
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:27 am

david wrote:

I think the child Molly had some doings in or near the Schisma. I think others have speculated on this before. Could she have gone there when it was inactive? Or was it she herself who fired the shot that killed her older version? While trying to protect Henry. She wouldn't have known who any of those other people were.

My initial reaction was that perhaps a prison guard fired at the escaping prisoners and the bullet caught Molly.  But we didn't see the prisoners and bloodhounds until after Molly was shot.  We see them when Molly's perhaps dying breath told nnHenry to help adHenry and then suddenly nnHenry is no longer holding Molly, but still kneeling -- is alone with adHenry right before the prisoners and bloodhounds arrive.

Given that, I have a new theory about the shot that hit Molly.  I know Zalewski fired upward into the air, but I do believe it was that shot that hit Molly.  Here's how that might have happened.

Recall, when adHenry takes nnHenry to Juniper Hills.  A murder of crows takes flight and one or more crows fall to their deaths or were already dead and fall.  When adHenry enters the schisma, another murder of crows take flight overhead and our attention along with adHenry's is drawn to it.  I can't remember whether or not there were any dead crows falling to the ground, but there have been elsewhere at times.

I'm thinking the crows are hitting the hard edge of the schisma (much like flying into a glass door or window) and falling to the ground.  If that is true, it's possible Zalewski's shot upward into the air, ricocheted and hit Molly.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:38 am

@davidalan wrote:
@sandi wrote:
Wait a minute!  It just occurred to me -- young Molly killed adHenry's father Rev Deaver during the time adHenry was missing.  She later describes it to adult adHenry and says she felt like they were one person -- her connection to him was so great.  And she acted as adHenry as he hated his father so much.

adHenry was in a cage in Rev. Deaver's basement in nnHenry's timeline at the time Molly was pulling the trach out of Rev. Deaver's neck.  That's means the connection between them was so strong -- even an alternate reality couldn't sever it.


The bold part is serious.



Yes, and that connection was strong, Molly later describes it as being one with adHenry -- looking down at her hand and seeing Henry's.  

This then takes me back to that scene in young Molly's bedroom during the time adHenry was missing and the police questioning her.  Here's that scene.

S01E02
DEPUTY RIDGEWOOD:  Hi, Molly.  We found Father Deaver.  He was barely alive, at the bottom of a cliff at Castle Lake.  Did you know that?  (Molly shakes head no.  Deputy Ridgewood sits down on the edge of her bed.)  There's a lot of folks out in the woods tonight trying to find Henry, and we could use all the help we can get.  Did he ever ... say anything about running away?  Did he, uh ... did he talk about wanting to hurt his father?

YOUNG MOLLY STRAND:  It's not his father.

MRS. STRAND:  Mr. Deaver is half-dead, frozen -- fighting for his life!  Now they need to know, if that boy did it, why he did it!


Since young Molly is still deeply connected to missing young Henry (who is now in nnHenry's timeline), it's probably hard for her to pull her attention away from what Henry is experiencing to her reality.  So, I'm thinking when Molly says, "It's not his father."  She's actually voicing her knowledge that the Rev. Deaver who most likely just opened his door to a freezing adHenry -- is not adHenry's father, Rev. Deaver.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:05 am

The women is rev Deav's life are mad. His mother tried to kill him as a baby. Ruth tricked rev Deav in some serious fashion it would seem. What did she do?

One thing that has been getting at me is how everyone is a duplicate of themselves except for the Henry Deavers, yet they are living parallel lives. Clearly though, they are not the same person.

What adoption process did the Deavers have to go through? Where did this kid come from? Why is he a stand in for the real Henry Deaver?

Is it possible that Ruth tricked rev Deav by actually having their baby without his knowledge?

Spoiler:
 

Think about where this could leave us regarding Henry and Odin?
.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:28 pm

I've been reading back on some of the discussion I missed out on.

@davidalan wrote:
in the end i don't think the b&bers story itself was entirely successful. maybe if they relate in some way to the SK universe??? The Shining? Something else?

I think Big John's initial speculation about Mr. b&ber aka Gordon might possibly be right.  Is Gordon the child from the Happy Birthday Massacre Party?

It might explain the sudden and uncontrollable episodes he's had.  Certainly, a childhood memory of his parents' horrible and probably bloody and violent fight which most likely resulted in their deaths would cause some deep seated mental problems.  I'm thinking it's a real possibility.  

I would say it was all of nnHenry's portraits but Gordon's first episode occurred elsewhere.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:49 pm

@davidalan wrote:
Henry sends Wendell away. But Wendell sees the crow hit the bus and then practically doubles over from the intensity of whatever he hears. I think he stays on the bus longer because he's deliberating his choices but ultimately he gets off the bus and starts walking back to Castle Rock.
@davidalan wrote:
Wendell slept on the church pew (Rev Deaver's church). Is this significant? Is this why he later hears the sharp noise on the bus?
@davidalan wrote:
So maybe not only people transcend through the spot in the woods, and switch places, but their children do as well. And maybe have done so since the first people arrived in the area surrounding that spot in the woods.
REVEREND MATTHEW DEAVER:  This has been a curse since the beginning, since those original French settlers froze and starved 200 years ago.  The only survivor, a young girl, reduced to cutting up and eating the corpses of her own family.  Is that when it began?

It certainly suggests a genetic predisposition to be able to traverse an alternate reality.  Since adHenry had travelled to the alternate reality and returned prior to Wendell's conception, I could get onboard with adHenry's experience having altered his genes/dna -- chemical make-up, etc. which would allow his child to inherent the same genetic predisposition.  But, how did adopted Henry have that genetic predisposition?  We don't know who his real parents were.  So, there may still be a family relationship between him and his adopting parents.  He could even be a child of either Ruth or Matthew (given up for adoption).  Guess we'll find that out.

But if the people transcend and their children do as well, then I have to look at this scene differently.

Quote :
Opening Scene:  Rev. Matthew Deaver's voice overplays tragic scenes and finally, Rev. Deaver (in his basement) building a cage.
[DISTANT SIRENS WAIL]
REVEREND MATTHEW DEAVER:  God turned His back on this place.  - [SIRENS WAILING]  [TRAIN WHISTLE BLOWS]  - Abandoned us that's what people say.  Or they say He's punishing us for our sins, like Sodom and Gomorrah.  You remember the helicopter crash.  - [TRAIN WHISTLE BLOWS] - How about the school bus? People say, "It wasn't me!"  "It was this place." [SIRENS WAILING] And the thing is -- they're right.
When I was a boy my mother told me a story [BABY CRYING] about resurrection.  She was young, alone and convinced the Devil had a hold of me.bb[CRYING] And maybe he did.  [CRYING CONTINUES] Or maybe he had a hold of my mother.  (Mother presses hard edge of hangar over baby's neck and holds it there.)  [CRYING STOPS] - But then a miracle happened.  [BABY RESUMES CRYING] The Lord ... He saved both of us that day.  He brought me back from the dead, like His only son.  
I dedicated the rest of my life to His grace --  to fighting this great battle -- to hearing His voice.  "Let me stand athwart the door," I told Him.  But God, He doesn't take requests.
So I waited for years for instructions.  And then one day one terrible day ... God answered.

Maybe Rev Deaver's mother didn't kill him because he wouldn't stop crying and that was driving her crazy?  Maybe Baby Matthew was crying because he heard the schisma and Mom knew that.  Maybe mom killed him to spare him and put a stop to the recurrence?
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:02 pm

so much posting! so im not going to quote. weak but there you are.

in no order:

thanks sandi for the picture on odin's death. that skewer must have reached the other side of odin's brain. yuck. check odin mythology if you want to. odin is sometimes depicted as one eyed. the writers could have been having a little fun. i don't know if there's any significance to the name or odin himself. his egg carton device was found in ruins by the adult Henry Deaver.

there were prisoners and then later prison guards with bloodhounds. now that i think on them, they're all probably connected.

with the weirdness of the schisma, did you young girl 200 years ago only feed off of corpses. did she also cause death? or did the schisma cause it? starvation would have a gradual horror show, with some bodies ready to consume before others, if the survivors there were willing to follow that icky path. i would say the people either killed one another or the girl did it directly or some sweeping event took all the people out maybe while the girl was "somewhere else."

Are the flames in Odin's fire dancing men wearing hats? Or is that simply a Rorshach moment?

Yes when young Molly says it's not Henry's father, she must be referring to the Rev Deaver who opened his door to the terrified young Henry.


The bullet striking Molly remains a mystery. There may have been a ricochet, as you suggest Sandi. Or a directional distortion. I still go with a bullet from another participant in the schisma roll call. I still like young Molly. But what about Rev Deaver from the young Henry timeslip? He was always carrying a gun. I don't know. I don't know if we'll get a solid answer on this.


Yes John the women in the lives of the Rev Deavers have had their share of mental illness or cognitive dysfunction. I don't know about a doppelganger for No Name Henry. Have to think on that further.




added after sandi's next posts:

about Henry and Wendell, the only other black man running through the schisma was one of the prisoners. maybe that's where the genetic component for Henry and Wendell begins. If there is one.


I don't know about why Rev Deaver's mother stopped at the last minute. It's very Abraham and Isaac that's for sure. It was as though she at least had a moment of clarity. Or a voice in her head. The scene also shows how that Rev Deaver at least came from a very troubled lineage. Which leads to me to repeat that I don't think adult Henry is that Rev Deaver's son. He seems pretty normal, and successful, in his real life. I think he is that Pangborn's biological son.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:15 pm

@davidalan wrote:
Just recently I thought Molly might be a candidate as Odin killer. She was drawn to where she perceived Henry was imprisoned (history repeating itself). Regardless one question is where is Willie and what is his role (if any because he might be dead too) post Odin?

Molly is a suspect, IMO.  She was hell-bent on saving adHenry.  Odin would have tried to stop her and I can see her grabbing a skewer and plunging it into Odin.  And yeah, she might have gotten Willie too if he didn't run fast enough.

@MrBill60 wrote:

I guess Willy decided that spikes into his ears wasn't such a good idea and decided to spike Odin's eye instead.  That was a weird relationship and Willy's signing interpretation was a little too perfected, like he's heard it so many times that he knew it verbatim.  Interesting that he never signed back to Odin, but I guess Odin was a good lip reader.

I think fear of the spikes in his ears would be the only way Willy is the killer.  I don't think he was sold on the idea and if Odin tried to do it anyway, I can see Willy fighting back.

Could someone from the schisma have done it?  Maybe.


@davidalan wrote:
Are the flames in Odin's fire dancing men wearing hats? Or is that simply a Rorshach moment?
Most likely a Rorshach moment -- perhaps helped along by an extra glass of wine? Very Happy

@davidalan wrote:
Which leads to me to repeat that I don't think adult Henry is that Rev Deaver's son. He seems pretty normal, and successful, in his real life. I think he is that Pangborn's biological son.

That could be Nurture vs Nature as well.  If nnHenry is Pangborn's biological son, and there's a genetic predisposition to schisma travel or influence, then I would have to guess that heredity would be on Ruth's side.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:39 pm

@sandi wrote:
@davidalan wrote:


@davidalan wrote:
Which leads to me to repeat that I don't think adult Henry is that Rev Deaver's son. He seems pretty normal, and successful, in his real life. I think he is that Pangborn's biological son.

That could be Nurture vs Nature as well.  If nnHenry is Pangborn's biological son, and there's a genetic predisposition to schisma travel or influence, then I would have to guess that heredity would be on Ruth's side.

Interesting, but I believe that those 11 missing days  is the only thing that Lawyer Henry remembers, so it didn't have a massive life changing effect on him.  I think he being the suspect in his father's death had more of an effect on his life than the missing time.  However I believe that changed after he went into Odin's (Schroedinger's?) Box, and the 27 years caged in the Alt universe came crashing into his experience.  We'll see if that's the case in the next ep.


@davidalan wrote:
@MrBill60 wrote:

I guess Willy decided that spikes into his ears wasn't such a good idea and decided to spike Odin's eye instead.  That was a weird relationship and Willy's signing interpretation was a little too perfected, like he's heard it so many times that he knew it verbatim.  Interesting that he never signed back to Odin, but I guess Odin was a good lip reader.

I think fear of the spikes in his ears would be the only way Willy is the killer.  I don't think he was sold on the idea and if Odin tried to do it anyway, I can see Willy fighting back.

I do think Lawyer Henry was the catalyst since he was in the vicinity.   I think that both Henrys, since they're both out of sync are causing the devastation.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:19 pm

Mr. Bill wrote:
Interesting, but I believe that those 11 missing days is the only thing that Lawyer Henry remembers, so it didn't have a massive life changing effect on him. I think he being the suspect in his father's death had more of an effect on his life than the missing time. However I believe that changed after he went into Odin's (Schroedinger's?) Box, and the 27 years caged in the Alt universe came crashing into his experience. We'll see if that's the case in the next ep.

I don't know that I believe adHenry didn't remember any of his experience when he first came back. He spent 27 years trying to convince altRev Deaver of his story. Poor kid probably had visions of spending another 27 years trying to convince anyone in his own timeline of where he had been for only 11 days. I do believe that he suppressed his memories as a way of coping with what must have been a mind-blowing experience.

nnHenry at least had his father's account of adHenry's story. So, I think he was able to more readily understand and accept the reality of his situation.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:01 pm

Lol, I'm so confused trying to keep the Henrys - young, old, alt, NN and the Rev Deavers straight.   Tbh, I don't remember Lawyer Henry (as a child) trying to convince his father of his experiences.  I thought that Ruth told him to appease his father by telling him that he heard the "voice of God" in the woods.  I could be wrong and just don't remember him recounting his experiences to his father.   I would also assume that if he remembered those experiences, it would have made him more zombie-like than human as No Name was when he was released from Lacy's cage.   I still hold that Lawyer Henry being accused of his father's death had more impact on his life than his 11 days of missing time. It forced him to leave town as he was basically an outcast.

eta:  I do remember Lawyer Henry in the present day trying to find clues to his disappearance , more in line that he was abducted during that time.  I need to rewatch the episode when he visits the brother of someone who kept him a few days as a kid.  Was it Lacy's brother? I remember Henry finding a shed in the back with a dog bowl and he thought that it might be related.  But again, he was approaching it as if he were abducted for the 11 days, not caged for 27 years in the alt universe.  I don't think Lawyer Henry had any memory of what really happened during those 11 days until he was thrown into Odin's sound box.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:01 pm

If Henry disappears in 1991 when he was 13, then Henry must have been born in or about 1978. This would make him about 40 years old.

In 1991 of the alternate universe, Matthew Deaver is almost convinced that adopted Henry is his own son come back to him. Would that not make his own son, No Name Henry, the same age as adopted Henry, 40?

Is NN 40 years old?

He doesn't look 40 to me. He looks 27.

I still have it in my head that NN and Willie are the parallels of each other but I don't know if their father is Matthew Deaver or Alan Pangborn, could be one of each. Either way, I strongly suspect that NN and Willie are the two Henrys.

I'm also considering that Odin and adopted Henry, and maybe even Wendell, do not have a parallel. They are one of a kind people. Perhaps they are the control factor in a universe that is trying to reconcile itself.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:46 pm

Quote :
In 1991 of the alternate universe, Matthew Deaver is almost convinced that adopted Henry is his own son come back to him.

I didn't understand that one bit.  Was Rev Deaver blind?  Wasn't his real Henry just a phone call away, if he wanted to try to make amends?    Yeah the kid knew things, but the self-righteous perverted nutcase thought he was the answer to the world's problems.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:58 pm

@Big John wrote:
Is NN 40 years old?

He doesn't look 40 to me. He looks 27

adoptedHenry is 39 years old. He was 11 when he went missing and later that year 1991, he turned 12.
adHenry returns here and after 27 years is now 39 years old as he recently had a birthday.

We don't know how old nnHenry is or what year he was born. We don't even know what year it was in the alternate timeline when nnHenry went missing.

Mr. Bill wrote:
Tbh, I don't remember Lawyer Henry (as a child) trying to convince his father of his experiences.

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. Speaking about Lawyer Henry. When he went missing in his timeline, he showed up in the alternate timeline and was held captive by the alternate Rev. Deaver. young lawyer Henry spent 27 years trying to convince that Rev. Deaver of who he was. When he returned to his own timeline, he claimed no memory of anything. I'm not sure about that -- maybe. But it's also possible, having just spent 27 years trying to convince the alternate Rev. Deaver of who he was, he probably felt that no one would believe his story of travelling to an alternate timeline for 27 years -- so he just said he didn't remember. Over time, I think it most likely he started suppressing his memories as even he would question his sanity over what seems impossible.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:01 pm

Both Reverend Deavers are/were obsessively insane. Alt Deaver was allowed to live in anonymity (remember Molly's words to Henry) mainly because Ruth and HD split. Nobody cared. I don't think that Rev Deaver was at all likable, even for fire and brimstone churchgoers. I think he deluded himself into accepting a very young and black Henry Deaver as his repackaged son. As for the other Reverend Deaver, his much earlier death eliminated his cranky weirdness from the Deaver household dynamic. Ruth there probably was a much more sympathetic neighbor---particular with the suspicions regarding Henry and the death of his adoptive father. Poor Ruth with that patricidal black child. People probably spoke with her at the market, as long as her adoptive child wasn't with her. I wonder how he even survived at school.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:15 pm

I just can't wrap my head around 11 year old Henry in Rev Deaver's cage for 27 years.  He seemed to come out of the experience better than NN. He was relatively lucid and knew to go back into the Schisma to find his way home.  But the problem is,  I just can't suspend my disbelief enough to buy the premise.  It's Lost shenanigans again for me.  Hopefully it will come together for me tomorrow after watching the finale.

Quote :
I think he deluded himself into accepting a very young and black Henry Deaver as his repackaged son

Initially, but then he thought he was the devil, probably because he never aged.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:40 pm

But when young Henry was found and then escaped, he was still a young kid who still had young kid fears. I think he had no powers of deduction whatsoever. He had no skill to cope. So maybe if the schisma itself didn't cause young Henry's memory loss, maybe Henry's underdeveloped coping skills made him obliterate all events from his mind.

Meanwhile, one thing that might have helped you have an easier time with young Henry being imprisoned for 27 years would be a direct parallel construct with adult Henry in terms of screen time.  Trouble is with that the main mystery is virtually eliminated. What might be interesting is a parallel story (maybe as an extra) where we see more of young Henry's travels in his alternative universe. I can't imagine Rev Deav as my only companion though. Yuck. I'll take Lacey.  

Meanwhile, yes, Rev Deaver altered his perception of young Henry from a blessing delivered at the door to that of the antichrist. Probably all the bad things (helicopter, school bus, etc.) helped to push Deaver into his negative interpretation. Interestingly though, in the other universe, Lacey's opinion of No Name Henry changes, to some degree, from that of devil to uncertain. Parallel reverse directions.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:32 pm

Ruth went mad much like Rev Deav's mother and tried to kill baby Henry. Rev Deav took the baby to Odin where they swapped sons. Odin is adopted-Henry's father and Willie is the real Henry Deaver.

Boom final answer!
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:42 am

Episode 10 - WTF   hmmm
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:03 am

Meet the real No Name:

Spoiler:
 
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:33 am

@Big John wrote:
I think the axe murder by Jackie Torrance was a beautiful tie in to The Shining. I bet she becomes a struggling novelist.

At least I was right about something. eyes 77
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:58 am

So, No Name was the devil, right?
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:06 am

I can't remember what episode it was, but we briefly see a television screen and what's playing is an old black & white show about a prisoner pleading for someone to release him.  I recognized that particular snippet as an episode of the Twilight Zone.  Don't ask me how -- I just did.



It's called, "The Howling Man"

The Howling Man - Plot:
 
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:07 am

He is definitely evil. How he got that way is subject to interpretation.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:23 am

So, do you think Willy was trying to frame adHenry for Odin's murder? Seems to me, adHenry could not have murdered Odin since he was locked in the acoustic chamber and Willy knew that.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:34 am

Evil nnHenry did seem intent upon revenge for those responsible for putting him in the cell and keeping him there.  I was surprised that he intentionally sought out Warden Porter -- left her the soap carving -- and ultimately in a shocking moment -- she's hit and killed.  Was that a prison transport bus?

And I do believe Evil nnHenry orchestrated that little jail melee.  Did you see Evil nnHenry's eyes?  I haven't seen that kind of eye action since the multiple personality killer in "Identity".   I've wondered if things just happened because he was around (and I think some things do) but I believe that jail scene confirms his active participation in causing events.

So, we know in future seasons -- those set within 27 years prior to 2018 and those set after 2018 -- Evil NNHenry is sitting underground at Shawshank and planning I don't know what.  I wonder who'll feed him once adHenry kicks the bucket?
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:36 am

@Big John wrote:
He is definitely evil. How he got that way is subject to interpretation.

So, what's your interpretation of how he got that way?
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:38 am

Not sure Willie is trying to frame anyone. Willie is just telling the cops what he knows. It's possible that neither of them killed Odin. I suspect Odin's wound is self inflicted.

I also suspect that there is no alternate universe. I think monster boy made it up as a cover story to lure Henry into the woods in order to find the schisma. The schisma may be the doorway back to whatever ghastly home from which he came. Hence, what we see in ep 9 is just the creation of the cover story.

I'm surely wrong about that. I haven't been right about a gall darn thing. I will say this though, as it turns out the show is closer to a Pennywise type deal than anything else.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:39 am

@sandi wrote:
@Big John wrote:
He is definitely evil. How he got that way is subject to interpretation.

So, what's your interpretation of how he got that way?

Knowing Stephen King, this is just some random monster from the universe. I haven't read all his books though so there coild be tie ins I'm not aware of.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:42 am

@Big John wrote:
@sandi wrote:
@Big John wrote:
He is definitely evil. How he got that way is subject to interpretation.

So, what's your interpretation of how he got that way?

Knowing Stephen King, this is just some random monster from the universe. I haven't read all his books though so there coild be tie ins I'm not aware of.

Oh, you think nnHenry is an existing monster from the SK universe. I don't think so. I think he's original to the series.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:45 am

@sandi wrote:
Evil nnHenry did seem intent upon revenge for those responsible for putting him in the cell and keeping him there.  I was surprised that he intentionally sought out Warden Porter -- left her the soap carving -- and ultimately in a shocking moment -- she's hit and killed.  Was that a prison transport bus?

And I do believe Evil nnHenry orchestrated that little jail melee.  Did you see Evil nnHenry's eyes?  I haven't seen that kind of eye action since the multiple personality killer in "Identity".   I've wondered if things just happened because he was around (and I think some things do) but I believe that jail scene confirms his active participation in causing events.

So, we know in future seasons -- those set within 27 years prior to 2018 and those set after 2018 -- Evil NNHenry is sitting underground at Shawshank and planning I don't know what.  I wonder who'll feed him once adHenry kicks the bucket?

Yes that was a prison bus. This monster doesn;'t like wardens or jailers of any sort it seems.

He definitely caused the jail break. There is no doubt at all about it. He is the cause of the Castle Rock chaos. He's the bad guy. There is a lot that is unanswered but that much we know now, which is good cuz that was the big question.

I think next season will be at the Overlook hotel and feature our Lizzie Bordenesue Jackie Torrance attempting to write her novel Overlooked.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:45 am

@Big John wrote:
I also suspect that there is no alternate universe.

Then how do you explain adHenry being a prisoner in a cage -- held there by Rev Deaver for 27 years?
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:47 am

@sandi wrote:
@Big John wrote:
@sandi wrote:
@Big John wrote:
He is definitely evil. How he got that way is subject to interpretation.

So, what's your interpretation of how he got that way?

Knowing Stephen King, this is just some random monster from the universe. I haven't read all his books though so there coild be tie ins I'm not aware of.

Oh, you think nnHenry is an existing monster from the SK universe.  I don't think so.  I think he's original to the series.

That's not what I think. By 'random monster from the universe' I was referring to the universe in general, not the Stephen King universe, although I wouldn't rule it out.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:52 am

@sandi wrote:
@Big John wrote:
I also suspect that there is no alternate universe.

Then how do you explain adHenry being a prisoner in a cage -- held there by Rev Deaver for 27 years?

It's entirely possible that absolutely none of that actually happened. The entirity of episode 9 is centered on monster boy. All of it, every single thing we saw in ep 9, may be just part of monster boy's ploy to confuse and trick Henry in order to get Henry to lead him to the schisma which is his doorway back home.
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PostSubject: Re: Castle Rock - HULU    Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:55 am

I felt the ball was dropped in the finale.   Doctor Deaver, ALS specialist went into the Schisma (which I guess is supposed to be hell) and the devil came out? Really?  For me, it is a very unsatisfying resolution to the season.

I guess one question was answered - we did find out that young Henry did try to kill his father by pushing him over the cliff.  Molly knew this through her visions and finished the job by removing his tracheal tube after he was found.
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