Castle Rock - HULU

Big John wrote:

I wanna go solve crimes with you.

LOL -- Well, in a way, that's what we're trying to do now.  It's a lot of fun, isn't it?

And I'm so glad you are questioning the Family Birthday Party Massacre.  It's something I wanted to look closer at because I'm just not sure when it occurs and No Name acts differently about it than anything else we've seen.  Something different can give us answers -- we may not ask the right questions, but I feel there's something in this scene that's important.

First Question:

What exactly is that birthday scene?  Is it contemporary, something happening in our story's present?  Is it a flashback -- a memory that No Name is revisiting?  Or is it something else?

What we know:

• Shirley's Temple's song "Animal Crackers in my Soup" was being played on an old phonograph.  Yes, a track on a vinyl album and the song was made popular in the late 1930's from Temple's movie, "Curly Top" (1935).  
  
• The phonograph and vinyl record would suggest an earlier era.  Although, it could be played in the present -- maybe a family tradition?
  
• It's an odd song choice for a boy's birthday, don't you think?  Again a family tradition could be the answer but so could playing a popular song from a popular child's movie from that era.
  
• Dad is dressed in jeans, shirt and crew sweater -- a timeless combination.  Although I question jeans as a wardrobe choice from the 1930's/1940's.
  
• Mom is dressed in slacks, blouse and jacket, which is more contemporary, IMO.
  
• The cake is store-bought -- a sheet cake with piped icing and sits on a cardboard tray.  This lends itself to the present rather than the past.  I would expect a home-made birthday cake from a non-working mom during that era.  Working wives in slacks would have been unusual before WWII, IMO.
  
• There's a child's toy on the mantle -- one of those self-contained threaded large bead(s) along a wire or wooden maze kind of thing.  Could be from an earlier era but could also be from the present.
  
• The lamp shade in the hall that No Name is next too is reminiscent of an earlier time but could be the decorating style favored by the mom and dad in their vintage house.
  

Big John wrote:

So, I had to look up the cast list in order recall Desjardins' name. Remember the home buyer how admired the painting of Castle Lake?
His name is:
Gordon

Not too shabby detective skills yourself!  Great find and if this Gordon is the same as our birthday boy, then that would answer the timing of the birthday party.  But we can't jump to that conclusion however attractive it may be.  That tidbit needs to go in our back pocket for easy retrieval if anything else ties in.

With that in mind, I don't know for sure that we can put a date on the birthday party and say definitively whether it was a flashback or not.

Also, I did say there was a "something else" option.  Think about this.

The something different about the birthday scene was No Name himself.  Up until this instance when we observe him, he is not an active participant in events.  It's like he walks through and as he passes, horrible events occur just because of his proximity.

But in this scene, we see him squat down in the hallway and look into the dining room.  We see him stare at the butcher knife and then look at mom and dad.  He could be "willing" (for want of a better word) the ensuing argument and killing.  If that's true, then he has become an active participant in the event -- he specifically thought about what he wanted to happen and made it so.  This is different from what we've seen in the past.  In fact, after he was taken out of his cage, but still imprisoned at Shawshank, he asked a rather odd question ...

Has it begun? (or something to that effect.)

If you recall, Lacy alluded to a period of calm with no horrific tragedies in Castle Rock during the time No Name was in the cage.  I took "has it begun?"  as an end to that era and the beginning of another -- bad times.  And if No Name was asking this question, he knew horrific things would happen but he didn't know what or if they had started happening.  That tells me he is aware bad things are going to happen but not orchestrating them.

Something else -- I think perhaps No Name was an observer, watching a scene much like you or me watching this show.  Let me explain.

I think there are events that are so heinous -- filled with exceptionally strong emotions of hate and anger and acts so horrible, they sear an indelible mark on its physical locations.  And I believe this is what has happened to Castle Rock (who is the recipient of more than its fair share of misery) and specifically the house that No Name was drawn to.

So, regardless of when this event originally occurred -- in the past or in the recent present, it might have been a record of the occurrence and No Name was drawn to it through the music and was able to observe it as if it was currently happening.

This would be consistent with No Name being an observer as opposed to being an actual participant.  I like consistency.

So, the first question is:
What is the Happy Birthday Massacre?  Possible answers: a present event, a flashback, a "recording".

You guys have brought up some good points for discussion. I have to take a break right now, but I will be back to discuss your posts later on today.

I love this show.

I'll have to get Hulu, sounds like a great series particularly if SK in involved.

sandi wrote:

Big John wrote:

I wanna go solve crimes with you.

LOL -- Well, in a way, that's what we're trying to do now.  It's a lot of fun, isn't it?

And I'm so glad you are questioning the Family Birthday Party Massacre.  It's something I wanted to look closer at because I'm just not sure when it occurs and No Name acts differently about it than anything else we've seen.  Something different can give us answers -- we may not ask the right questions, but I feel there's something in this scene that's important.

First Question:

What exactly is that birthday scene?  Is it contemporary, something happening in our story's present?  Is it a flashback -- a memory that No Name is revisiting?  Or is it something else?

What we know:

• Shirley's Temple's song "Animal Crackers in my Soup" was being played on an old phonograph.  Yes, a track on a vinyl album and the song was made popular in the late 1930's from Temple's movie, "Curly Top" (1935).  
  
• The phonograph and vinyl record would suggest an earlier era.  Although, it could be played in the present -- maybe a family tradition?
  
• It's an odd song choice for a boy's birthday, don't you think?  Again a family tradition could be the answer but so could playing a popular song from a popular child's movie from that era.
  
• Dad is dressed in jeans, shirt and crew sweater -- a timeless combination.  Although I question jeans as a wardrobe choice from the 1930's/1940's.
  
• Mom is dressed in slacks, blouse and jacket, which is more contemporary, IMO.
  
• The cake is store-bought -- a sheet cake with piped icing and sits on a cardboard tray.  This lends itself to the present rather than the past.  I would expect a home-made birthday cake from a non-working mom during that era.  Working wives in slacks would have been unusual before WWII, IMO.
  
• There's a child's toy on the mantle -- one of those self-contained threaded large bead(s) along a wire or wooden maze kind of thing.  Could be from an earlier era but could also be from the present.
  
• The lamp shade in the hall that No Name is next too is reminiscent of an earlier time but could be the decorating style favored by the mom and dad in their vintage house.
  

Big John wrote:

So, I had to look up the cast list in order recall Desjardins' name. Remember the home buyer how admired the painting of Castle Lake?
His name is:
Gordon

Not too shabby detective skills yourself!  Great find and if this Gordon is the same as our birthday boy, then that would answer the timing of the birthday party.  But we can't jump to that conclusion however attractive it may be.  That tidbit needs to go in our back pocket for easy retrieval if anything else ties in.

With that in mind, I don't know for sure that we can put a date on the birthday party and say definitively whether it was a flashback or not.

Also, I did say there was a "something else" option.  Think about this.

The something different about the birthday scene was No Name himself.  Up until this instance when we observe him, he is not an active participant in events.  It's like he walks through and as he passes, horrible events occur just because of his proximity.

But in this scene, we see him squat down in the hallway and look into the dining room.  We see him stare at the butcher knife and then look at mom and dad.  He could be "willing" (for want of a better word) the ensuing argument and killing.  If that's true, then he has become an active participant in the event -- he specifically thought about what he wanted to happen and made it so.  This is different from what we've seen in the past.  In fact, after he was taken out of his cage, but still imprisoned at Shawshank, he asked a rather odd question ...

Has it begun? (or something to that effect.)

If you recall, Lacy alluded to a period of calm with no horrific tragedies in Castle Rock during the time No Name was in the cage.  I took "has it begun?"  as an end to that era and the beginning of another -- bad times.  And if No Name was asking this question, he knew horrific things would happen but he didn't know what or if they had started happening.  That tells me he is aware bad things are going to happen but not orchestrating them.

Something else -- I think perhaps No Name was an observer, watching a scene much like you or me watching this show.  Let me explain.

I think there are events that are so heinous -- filled with exceptionally strong emotions of hate and anger and acts so horrible, they sear an indelible mark on its physical locations.  And I believe this is what has happened to Castle Rock (who is the recipient of more than its fair share of misery) and specifically the house that No Name was drawn to.

So, regardless of when this event originally occurred -- in the past or in the recent present, it might have been a record of the occurrence and No Name was drawn to it through the music and was able to observe it as if it was currently happening.

This would be consistent with No Name being an observer as opposed to being an actual participant.  I like consistency.

So, the first question is:
What is the Happy Birthday Massacre?  Possible answers: a present event, a flashback, a "recording".

I understand what you're saying. It could very well be the answer. I can see how what we've seen so far could support it. That 'has it begun' line is a big one.

I'm going to flip back to the Birthday Party Massacre and try to work out some things from there. Gordie the child is the key component for me. Is he Gordie from Stand By Me, or is he Gordon the home buyer, or could he be the boy/no name? I guess I'll start calling him No Name too just so we're all on the same page.

A lot of circumstantial evidence points to the Gordie from Stand By Me. The time frame of the birthday party matches. I too noticed the outfits and decor and the cake. Jeans were not popular in the 30s and 40s and Gordie's dad doesn't appear to be a trend setter. Everything else is intentionally neutral.

- Side note, a car drives by just before No Name turns to go upstairs. We don't see the car but it's headlights shine through the room just like a car passing by would. I know this small detail is put in the scene for a reason because it briefly caught no name's attention. I haven't been able to deduce anything from it though.

Back to the party. The record player is another small piece of evidence. Now, I am no expert by any means, but I just got done  with some readin and looking at pictures. In the 30s and much of the 40s, 78s were popular. It wasn't untilafter WWII (1945) that full length vinyls, aka 33s, starting gaining in popularity, which is what we see playing in the scene. The needle isn't a match for phonograph era machines either.



Now this moment came and went so fast, I'm not sure it was intended to be broken down to this effect. The needle and other stuff I mention could just be production throwing in an old record player which turns out to be a minor production gaff cuz it doesn't line up perfectly with the intended timeline. In other words, it might possibly be evidence of nothing. Have to go with it for now though because it is in there after all.

So then we have the tie in, albeit a loose one, to Stand By Me. Gordie from the movie was 12 going on 13 during the summer of 1959. If it is the same Gordie, he would have turned 7 in 1954. The time frame is a perfect match.

We have the line about the dead body which is a clear and direct reference to Stand By Me. It was spoke to a group of 3 kids in a treehouse. One of those kids was Gordie. However, the voice in No Name's head is different than Vern's vopice, who actually said the line.

To sum up the character from Stand By Me , he is described as a very quiet and shy young boy whose parents don't treat him well. That part is a good fit with No Name.

However, he also had an older brother who died when he was young. No mention of a younger sibling. That's not a good fit for birthday Gordie being the Stand By Me Gordie, at least on the surface.

It's all circumstantial, as is the evidence for all the theories at this point, but the inconsistencies are not ones that couldn't be explained away and the evidence itself, both internal and external, I think supports the Stand By Me theory a little bit stronger.

I can't help wondering if the Pangborn era crew had something to do with Gordie and his group back in the 50s. How old is Pangborn again? Cuz if the home buyer turns out to birthday Gordie, he's undoubtedly part of the Pangborn crew I mentioned earlier..

Back to No Name being a witness and places being stained because of human events. My take on the whole staining thing comes with great doubt. Not just in regards to Castle Rock but in general.

Killing isn't unique to humans. If places get stained from atrocities, what about when animals viciously tear each other apart and then eat each other? If humans were doing that, certainly many would think that would qualify as a staining event. Maybe we operate on a different wavelength than animals and we can't see their stains. Maybe people think animals don't stain the landscape because killing and eating each other is their natural state of being. IDK, just seems ridiculous to me. However, that doesn't mean it isn't part of the story.

No Name, could indeed be witnessing the birthday party massacre for a reason. He was led to it for sure. Maybe he needed to see it for some future purpose. Perhaps he saw it because Gordie's back in town. That definitely lends itself to your theory, Sandi. As the matter of fact, I rather like it, but I don't think it's a stain. If this is indeed what happened, I think it was either a memory or something he was intentionally shown to him.

I still feel like the evidence points stronger to No Name being Pennywise, but things get twisty in these shows.

Okay, I'm ready for the next episode.

In It, Pennywise surfaces every 27 years. Pangborn tells No Name it's been 27 years since he saw him. No Name's earlier 'has it begun' line is getting to me. I need to watch that again. Do you recall which episode it was in?

I don't remember which episode it was in. Sorry.

Mr. Bill60 wrote:

I'll have to get Hulu, sounds like a great series particularly if SK in involved.

I think they're running a free trial right now and I think you would enjoy this series, Mr. Bill.

Home buyer Gordon is a history teacher in Des Moines. During their walk thru scene, his wife mentions Gordon's mother is dead. To this Gordon comments, "Thank God."

I love this show BUT

damn , I need to re watch episode 5

it is good and creepy

davidalan wrote:

All of today's and other events remind me of The Stand. Destruction to renew creation. In this case though what the renewed creation would be isn't clear. That's my take on first thought post-episode. That might, Sandi, be related to your very cool biblical theory. The destruction-creation construct has a spiritual theme certainly. But I don't know if No Name is a specific manifestation of one of the horseman so much as his own manifestation which the writers have put in a biblical framework. The old warden does mention six nights, right? Well, on the seventh we don't have rest, we have action. Abduction. But from where?

Well we do have an encroaching fire descending on the town.  Fire-fighting efforts are not as effective as they need to be and maybe Castle Rock will be cleansed by fire?  Also, we do have Molly's model of her conception of a future "reinvigorated" town -- so maybe that is the answer.  It's a little chilling now that No Name has placed a statuette of himself inside that model.

davidalan wrote:

What interests me more though is No Name is presenting a duality. Maybe it is what I had said earlier: a battle within between the true kid and what demon is roaming around inside. Or maybe not.  I agree with the demon concept expressed earlier. Here we learn No Name hasn't aged one bit. I wonder then if the demon is actually there all the time (in It mode) and occupies a body until the body is gone. That might explain the lack of aging. The story Pangborn relates to No Name (and of course to us) is so compelling. I could have listened to it all day. But it's No Name's response that's interesting too. He suddenly has (more) voice. Awareness? It started with the piano yes. But I wonder if it also started with the Shirley Temple music. Anyway his response to Pangborn is quick and direct and without that avoidant look in his eye. Something's clicked.

"He suddenly has (more) voice ... Something's clicked."

I think the darkness within him is growing stronger.  

No Name has been isolated for 27 years and by the looks of him, appears to be starving.  He's super thin, pale and his eyes have that hollowed-out look.  

When No Name observed the Happy Birthday Massacre, I thought he appeared to be greedily seeking the hate and violent scene to come -- like his mouth was watering at the thought.  Could the darkness within him feed on misery, hatred and violence?  Maybe he's now getting the nourishment he needs and we will continue to see him grown stronger?

Big John wrote:

Exploding Casket Syndrome. That's a new one to me. Thought they were making it up but it's a real thing according to google almighty. However, this probably wasn't that after all, but what was it?

I'm inclined to take this at face value (given the length of time, uncommon but can happen) and read nothing sinister into it unless something else occurs and indicates otherwise.  LINK - decomposition info which I wish I hadn't read

Big John wrote:

What is the significance of the wildfire?

Adding to my list of questions needing answers.

Big John wrote:

Why would the warden wonder if he has done the right thing by locking up Pennywise?

I had a different question which I think this question may answer -- Why did Warden Lacy tell No Name to ask for Henry Matthew Deaver?  (Could Lacy be second guessing himself?  It's at this point he pulls off his glove and touches No Name.  Could this mean that Lacy now thinks he made a mistake?  How could he when No Name didn't age? or Does Henry Deaver hold the key to destroying No Name?) (on my list)

If I thought I was talking to something evil -- the devil or some demon -- I certainly wouldn't tell him to seek out someone -- unless that someone could destroy him.

Big John wrote:

How did Pangborn not notice Carrie get up and walk over to the bridge? I mean, he can't seem to stop himself from ogling her in every moment, including during his big speech. So what was his big distraction? Was it the dog that somehow made that whole incident happen?

I wondered the same thing.  I don't think the dog actively made anything happen.  I think the dog drew everyone's attention, including Pangborn's.  It's right after, that Pangborn looks away and when he glances back in Ruth Deaver's direction, sees she's gone and that's when he sees her on the bridge about to jump.

Big John wrote:

The privatizing of the prison. This subtly comes up in just about every episode. Who would buy that place?

There's a lot of money to be made in the prison system and a lot of room for less than honest record keeping.  I remember the warden from Shawshank Redemption and all the corruption there.

Big John wrote:

In 2016 while still in TX, Henry gets a CT scan due to the ringing in his right ear. At this time, he also undergoes a test where he has to repeat 5 words back to the tester in any order, which is a concussion test.

I missed something.  How do we know it was 2016? and in Texas?  and the 5 word test was at the same time as 2016 TX?

Regarding Ruth Deaver jumping off the bridge ...

Big John wrote:

Why attack Ruth? Was Pennywise the one with the fever that she said Pangborn's got to kill? I know that statement was probably Ruth having her own flashback, but of what though? Is she thinking of the night Pangborn pulled Lacy over? Or, is she thinking she is talking to Rev Deav about his confrontation with Pennywise?

Ruth is close to the center of this mess somehow. Ruth, Rev Deav, Pangborn, Lacy, and Desjardins... they're all connected by something. Like, maybe they're an 'It' group as well. Whatever it is, it runs a lot deeper than just being small town lifelong chums.

Does anyone think Ruth was attacked specifically?  Or, was her suicide attempt a by-product of something else?

davidalan wrote:

I forgot about the figure (now soap) and the expansive diorama. Maybe No Name is using a visual to place himself in the town. Had he lost his identity up to that point? On a weirder note, it also reminded me of the results of onanism, or sex.

Does this tie-in to the show and if it does, could you explain further.  If not, then just ignore my quote.  

davidalan wrote:

I didn't pay close attention to all of what I now believe were memories that No Name was experiencing on the roof. It was probably some of the familiar SK quotes plus a few new ones. A great scene btw.

I didn't pay close attention either.  If the rooftop scene contains just memories (past events) then, I think that's a point in favor of the Happy Birthday Massacre also being some kind of memory or past event.  (At this point, we can't know if past events are memories or something else -- recordings of the past if you will.)  When I rewatch, I'll try and pick up whatever he sees or hears and see if we can match it up to anything else.

Big John wrote:

I can't help wondering if the Pangborn era crew had something to do with Gordie and his group back in the 50s. How old is Pangborn again? Cuz if the home buyer turns out to birthday Gordie, he's undoubtedly part of the Pangborn crew I mentioned earlier..

 

From SK Wiki LINK
Alan J. Pangborn was the sheriff of Castle Rock, Maine for a decade, between 1981 and 1991. He succeeded George Bannerman as sheriff and faced two major adversaries in his town: the first against George Stark (The Dark Half) and the second against Leland Gaunt, the owner of the 'Needful Things' shop.  (see more info at the link)

Pangborn doesn't go back that far.  Interesting that his last year as sheriff coincides with Lacy capturing No Name and 11 year old Henry's missing days -- 1991.

There's a few more things I want to talk about before I start re-watching these 5 episodes and one is -- Molly Strand (Henry Deaver's childhood neighbor and friend, Castle Rock's realtor.

Molly appears to be telepathic -- she hears other people's thoughts -- she is a receiver and so far (I think) we haven't seen any indication she is a sender.  However, Molly describes herself as an empath.

dictionary wrote:

empath  em·path
noun

A person thought to have the ability to perceive or experience the emotional state of another individual. LINK

Quote :

Empathy is the ability to read and understand people and be in-tune with or resonate with others. Sometimes it is voluntary and at other times it can be involuntary, especially for someone who is a natural empath.


Empaths are hypersensitive people who experience a high level of compassion, consideration, and understanding towards others. Their intense empathy creates a tuning fork effect, wherein the empath seems to actually "feel" the emotions of the people around them. Many empaths are unaware of how this works; they may have simply accepted long ago that they are sensitive to others.  LINK

I think she's both.  

We saw that her link to Henry is so strong that when he hurt himself, she recoiled from the pain she felt even though she was no where around him.  We saw her limit (via the toy hourglass) the amount of time she spent looking at his childhood missing poster and holding his red plaid hoodie.  I wondered why she needed to set the timer and I think it's obvious that she did not want to re-establish a strong link at the time.  (Now that he's back in town and around her -- that's happened and she's resigned to it.)

I'm interested in Rev. Deaver's death scene.  We saw Molly sneak into the Deaver house and kill the Reverend, but I don't believe that was Molly acting on her own.  There's no reason for it -- so far anyway.  I think, through her intense bond with Henry, that she was acting as Henry on Henry's emotions.  (At least I think it likely to be Henry's emotions.)

So, on my re-watch, I want to pay particular attention to that flashback's sequence of events.

davidalan wrote:

... I now think of the blond woman who I kind of like. She's seems untouched by No Name's peculiarity. In fact when he must appear naked to her she didn't seem to mind? She might have not chastised him. Just said oh sorry. I don't know. She's perplexing.

I think she wasn't affected because she was on drugs.  We've seen Molly Strand take drugs to lessen her ability to hear/feel the thoughts of others, so I think that's why Jackie Torrance was not affected by No Name, IMO.

Big John wrote:

Molly somewhat convincingly tells Deaver how dangerous Pennywise is and in his very next breath Deaver invites Pennywise to a sleepover. This was my one laugh out loud moment. Molly didn't show much of a reaction to hearing whatever it was she picked up from Pennywise on that rooftop or otherwise. I was hoping for more of a reaction from her but she's probably accustomed to hiding it and she is rather introverted to begin with, which makes real estate agent a strange career choice.

I'll try to determine when Molly took drugs during these episodes to see if that's why we didn't see more of a reaction.

(I have more on Molly later.)

A few things I made note of during my first watch ...

When Lacy was in the cage with No Name, Lacy asked if he remembers that crazy story he told him(Lacy) the first night he brought him there.

I don't remember any other reference to anything No Name may have told Lacy, so I'm looking forward to that "crazy story" being revealed at some point. And I'm also wondering if that crazy story provides No Name with some kind of "innocence" -- like being possessed or something else like that.

Big John wrote:

In 2016 while still in TX, Henry gets a CT scan due to the ringing in his right ear. At this time, he also undergoes a test where he has to repeat 5 words back to the tester in any order, which is a concussion test. After being released from prison, Pennywise gets the same test. The two tests have two words in common. Church and Family. Both men order the words so that Family is the last word. Coincidence?

How do we know it's 2016 and in TX?

I actually wrote this down.

Henry's test
Technician: Boat/Family/Church/Dog/White
Henry: Boat/White/Church/Dog/Family


No Name's test
No Name has flashing images and calls them Face/No Face
Technician: Face/Velvet/Church/Family/Red
No Name: Face/Velvet/Red/Church/Family

Technician said to Henry: Boat/Family/Church/Dog/White
Technician said to NoNm: Face/Velvet/Church/Family/Red

Henry's response: Boat/White/Church/Dog/Family
NoNm's response: Face/Velvet/Red/Church/Family


What can we surmise from that info?

Tidbit: Doctor tells Henry, best she can do is see if she can get No Name in Juniper Hill by Monday.
"Is Juniper Hill a Real Place? This 'Castle Rock' Asylum Is Home To A Host Of Characters" LINK

Did anyone else think it odd that several people were wearing breathing masks during the Pangborn Bridge ceremony?

The wildfire originated on Black Mountain. That's sounds ominous.

I wondered about the masks too, though the storyline was that there were forest fires in the area. Unfortunately seen a lot of Californians on the news wearing masks as well.

Zaphod wrote:

I wondered about the masks too, though the storyline was that there were forest fires in the area. Unfortunately seen a lot of Californians on the news wearing masks as well.

I thought about that, but if the smoke was bad enough -- wouldn't more people be wearing masks? It's probably the answer though -- maybe.

And lastly before I start rewatching ...

Molly, when talking about her ability, said something about it being all about "frequency".

Quote :

Nearly all objects, when hit or struck or plucked or strummed or somehow disturbed, will vibrate. If you drop a meter stick or pencil on the floor, it will begin to vibrate. If you pluck a guitar string, it will begin to vibrate. If you blow over the top of a pop bottle, the air inside will vibrate. When each of these objects vibrates, they tend to vibrate at a particular frequency or a set of frequencies. The frequency or frequencies at which an object tends to vibrate with when hit, struck, plucked, strummed or somehow disturbed is known as the natural frequency of the object. If the amplitudes of the vibrations are large enough and if natural frequency is within the human frequency range, then the vibrating object will produce sound waves that are audible. LINK

Quote :

The ability of humans to perceive pitch is associated with the frequency of the sound wave that impinges upon the ear. Because sound waves traveling through air are longitudinal waves that produce high- and low-pressure disturbances of the particles of the air at a given frequency, the ear has an ability to detect such frequencies and associate them with the pitch of the sound. LINK

I think Molly is saying that somehow her ability to hear the frequency of a sound wave is greater than other people's and because of that she can "hear" and "feel" what are others are thinking and feeling.

What if we apply "frequency" to No Name?  If it is true that No Name causes violent behavior in others, then I think it's more than likely that the cage he's been kept prisoner in also contained and blocked any vibrations which would result in others receiving any sound waves from him.  

I don't know how else to explain what I'm thinking here and I hope I've conveyed enough so you understand.

One last item -- this is what I'm looking for while I re-watch.  If anyone has a question from any of the episodes, post it here and I'll add it to the list.

list:

brain waves are electrical impulses, i believe in waves - which a heightened individual could conceivably pick up on. some people have better eyesight and pick up more details, why couldn't she pick up on brain wave impulses? in fact being bombarded makes sense, as no one is trained in how to filter that stuff out (like one can do with certain sounds.)

Second scene of the episode begins like this.




Based on the pic below, I'm making a guess that No Name spent a fair amount of time at the Desjardins house where he learned to play the piano. As we see in the pic, the piano has crashed through the ceiling into the kitchen probably due to water damage.




Pangborn and the rest of that generation are at least 70 yrs old which puts them squarely in the 50s as youngsters.

I do think Ruth was attacked. I think something overcame her and walked her to that bridge. To me, that's an attack. I think that's what the soap statue represents. After all, the soap statue was the very next scene. I know that's not actual evidence but in the tv world it's a clue.

When you rewatch the rev deav death scene, confirm that he actually dies from what Molly does. It definitely looks like she kills him but do we actually see him die from it? I know I'm reaching with this but again, tv manipulates us this way sometimes.

Big John wrote:

Second scene of the episode begins like this.

Thanks BJ -- I missed that.

I've been assuming all along that the present was our time 2018.  To anyone's recollection, is there anything in the series so far that sets the present time?  Could the present time be 2016?

If we'd been looking at 2016 this whole time, they probably wouldn't have tagged that scene with the 2016 label cuz we'd most likely already know it. Surely they tagged that scene only because it isn't in our current timeline. Pretty sure the show's present is the present.

Big John wrote:

If we'd been looking at 2016 this whole time, they probably wouldn't have tagged that scene with the 2016 label cuz we'd most likely already know it. Surely they tagged that scene only because it isn't in our current timeline. Pretty sure the show's present is the present.

Big John wrote:

In 2016 while still in TX, Henry gets a CT scan due to the ringing in his right ear. At this time, he also undergoes a test where he has to repeat 5 words back to the tester in any order, which is a concussion test. After being released from prison, Pennywise gets the same test. The two tests have two words in common. Church and Family. Both men order the words so that Family is the last word. Coincidence?

I missed the 2016 when viewing this scene. Since Deaver and No Name get essentially the same test -- I figured the tests were conducted at the same place and approximately the same time. I thought Henry got the CT scan and his right ear checked out because of the gun going off right next to his right ear at the end of the Zalewski shooting spree.

I'll have to pay better attention when I re-watch. lol

sandi wrote:

Well we do have an encroaching fire descending on the town.  Fire-fighting efforts are not as effective as they need to be and maybe Castle Rock will be cleansed by fire?  Also, we do have Molly's model of her conception of a future "reinvigorated" town -- so maybe that is the answer.  It's a little chilling now that No Name has placed a statuette of himself inside that model.

there are one or two possibilities (one of which I'll answer later).

1---self-identity. at this point no name can barely talk. a physical representation of himself is almost therapeutic. i wonder if he's done this before.
2---remaking of himself. this pertains to the future "reinvigorated" town of which he now makes himself a citizen. sort of identity but more purposeful. this interpretation involves greater intent.
3---religion. a spiritual symbol again perhaps of self-identification. but this is more of a literary device than a factual one. unless this helps no name continue on to where he has the conversation with pangborn about helping ruth. i'm not saying he's Christ resurrected, but he is himself resurrected, as whatever definition. remember he came from a cage (john the baptist) and basically a cave (Jesus himself). he reminds me now of Camus' The Stranger as in the title character: an elusive personality even though he possesses the entire narrative pov.

that's it so far.

sandi wrote:

"He suddenly has (more) voice ... Something's clicked."

I think the darkness within him is growing stronger.  

No Name has been isolated for 27 years and by the looks of him, appears to be starving.  He's super thin, pale and his eyes have that hollowed-out look.  

When No Name observed the Happy Birthday Massacre, I thought he appeared to be greedily seeking the hate and violent scene to come -- like his mouth was watering at the thought.  Could the darkness within him feed on misery, hatred and violence?  Maybe he's now getting the nourishment he needs and we will continue to see him grown stronger?

No Name's looks are also that of the actor but I'm sure what makes Bill S thin and gaunt was enhanced.

As for darkness, I think it was always there, but I'm still not convinced it was of No Name's choosing. If it was, fine. But SK likes layers, and this might be one of them (as in what the writers might think). No Name certainly speaks with resolve to Panghorn. Yet his words wouldn't automatically suggest evil? Although in this story there may be a price for every single thing.


As for the HBM, I'm still not certain that it was in real time. I'm not sure he even went into the house. It all could have been a projection of memory. But the knife is key. And of course it's echoed back into the carving of the soap figure.


As for what he's feeding on, I think he similar to Molly (real estate lady) in that he taps into what's around him. On the roof Molly was confused by her inability to read him, but maybe he does all the reading and has very little inner core. Maybe he's been tapping into the general depravity of humanity.

sandi wrote:

Big John wrote:

Exploding Casket Syndrome. That's a new one to me. Thought they were making it up but it's a real thing according to google almighty. However, this probably wasn't that after all, but what was it?

I'm inclined to take this at face value (given the length of time, uncommon but can happen) and read nothing sinister into it unless something else occurs and indicates otherwise.  LINK - decomposition info which I wish I hadn't read

thanks for the warning. I'll pass on that as well. however, some cemeteries and/or funeral businesses have been cited for fudging things. if Shawshank is a mess and has always been, why not this  cemetery in maine. why not everything else there for that matter.

sandi wrote:

Big John wrote:

What is the significance of the wildfire?

Adding to my list of questions needing answers.

Big John wrote:

Why would the warden wonder if he has done the right thing by locking up Pennywise?

I had a different question which I think this question may answer -- Why did Warden Lacy tell No Name to ask for Henry Matthew Deaver?  (Could Lacy be second guessing himself?  It's at this point he pulls off his glove and touches No Name.  Could this mean that Lacy now thinks he made a mistake?  How could he when No Name didn't age? or Does Henry Deaver hold the key to destroying No Name?) (on my list)

If I thought I was talking to something evil -- the devil or some demon -- I certainly wouldn't tell him to seek out someone -- unless that someone could destroy him.

the wildfire is a big deal. symbolically if not just physically. my guess is that it'll surround the town, trapping people there and with their truths and deceptions.


asking for Deaver is the biggest question. my guess is that Deaver was there during the abduction. or was impacted beforehand and did actually engage in the initial violence against his adoptive father. maybe some of those eleven days he was held by Warden Lacy until it was safe to release him. I don't think we'll learn about Deaver in the wilderness until later. My guess is that Deaver's and No Name's memories will sharpen concurrently.


as for the glove removal and the hand touching which Lacy must have known or that would lead him to do something, I think that suicide was his intent all along and that No Name's touch merely strengthened the resolve. I wonder now also if the guard's earlier vision of the other guards being killed was something he had been thinking about already---not as a definite desire but as a fantasy of despair? or of mental illness?

sandi wrote:

Big John wrote:

How did Pangborn not notice Carrie get up and walk over to the bridge? I mean, he can't seem to stop himself from ogling her in every moment, including during his big speech. So what was his big distraction? Was it the dog that somehow made that whole incident happen?

I wondered the same thing.  I don't think the dog actively made anything happen.  I think the dog drew everyone's attention, including Pangborn's.  It's right after, that Pangborn looks away and when he glances back in Ruth Deaver's direction, sees she's gone and that's when he sees her on the bridge about to jump.

I think that the dog was reacting to Ruth. Something that she was remembering that caused an intense frightful emotion which the dog "intuited." The time thing confused me. Did Ruth move swiftly to the bridge or just get up as though she was just going to walk around, to stretch her legs. That whole sequence was cool btw.

sandi wrote:

Big John wrote:

In 2016 while still in TX, Henry gets a CT scan due to the ringing in his right ear. At this time, he also undergoes a test where he has to repeat 5 words back to the tester in any order, which is a concussion test.

I missed something.  How do we know it was 2016? and in Texas?  and the 5 word test was at the same time as 2016 TX?

Yes I thought Deaver had in a condition in 2016 which required attention. And then of course the gun shots right next to him which not only probably messed up his ear again, but must have reminded him of an execution.

Let us all not forget the biggest clue we have about No Name - The Touch of Death. This isn't some mystical bystander bearing witness. Perhaps Sandi is correct about him being the 4th horseman. Even though that seems pretty far out for a SK bad guy and even though I don't buy it, I haven't ruled it out cuz it could maybe possibly fit.

Otherwise though, and more likely, we're looking at an evil force who has possessed a body which is 'coincidentally' played by the same actor who played Pennywise last year in a SK movie, a character who shows up in Castle Rock every 27 years. Plus ... to list them all would be exhausting but so many other things point to No Name being Pennywise. Even you, David, pointed out how your brother noticed the similarity of the fist bump and the Pennywise scene in the sewer.

I get how it seems too easy at this point in the show and it would be fun to still have a mystery to solve. Pretty sure there ARE still more mysteries to solve within this show.

As I was typing, I had this thought. Since it's been 27 years that Pennywise has been inactive, who has arrived in town? Henry is back. Gordon is back. No Name is free.

I'm about to contradict everything I just typed. Could Henry somehow be Pennywise? Could Pennywise have somehow escaped No Name's body in 1991 and jumped into Henry's body? What's up with the ringing in Henry's ear?

Regarding Ruth Deaver jumping off the bridge ...

Big John wrote:

Why attack Ruth? Was Pennywise the one with the fever that she said Pangborn's got to kill? I know that statement was probably Ruth having her own flashback, but of what though? Is she thinking of the night Pangborn pulled Lacy over? Or, is she thinking she is talking to Rev Deav about his confrontation with Pennywise?

Ruth is close to the center of this mess somehow. Ruth, Rev Deav, Pangborn, Lacy, and Desjardins... they're all connected by something. Like, maybe they're an 'It' group as well. Whatever it is, it runs a lot deeper than just being small town lifelong chums.

Does anyone think Ruth was attacked specifically?  Or, was her suicide attempt a by-product of something else?

Any possibility of Ruth being No Name's biological mother? Does the math work? Because why should this couple---no offense to anyone---adopt a black child? An exchange with the orphanage? Anyway, this only works (or should it work at all?) if the physical No Name is the most recent receptacle of whatever spirit (or whatever) possesses him. If No Name has always been himself, in this embodiment, then this possibility flies out the window. But the actual adoption of Henry would be an interesting tale.

I wonder if Ruth wanted to put Reverend Deaver out of his misery after his injuries. I could see Deaver having a fever on top of everything else. Maybe she wanted her husband out of the way. Molly maybe acted on all that, as well as on the history between Deaver and Henry, which may not have been good. I don't know. Need more episodes!

sandi wrote:

davidalan wrote:

I forgot about the figure (now soap) and the expansive diorama. Maybe No Name is using a visual to place himself in the town. Had he lost his identity up to that point? On a weirder note, it also reminded me of the results of onanism, or sex.

Does this tie-in to the show and if it does, could you explain further.  If not, then just ignore my quote.  

this is the last of the possibilities i referred to two posts ago.

sexual: in a psychosexual modality the figure could serve as a fetish. Not to use in the sexual act but as a phallic symbol right smack in the middle of town. As for the soap shavings, the visual seemed to be like male sexual release, especially when the blond woman tasted it and didn't like it. does this mean there's a sexual undercurrent in the show? probably. sex is everywhere.


after thinking about I don't think the two of them got it on, but the scene with him standing there naked and her on the bed brought to mind the possibility. the scene also reminded me of the Rubens painting Angelica and the Hermit---although in that Angelica is very naked on the bed and the Hermit is very clothed standing over her.

sandi wrote:

Big John wrote:

I can't help wondering if the Pangborn era crew had something to do with Gordie and his group back in the 50s. How old is Pangborn again? Cuz if the home buyer turns out to birthday Gordie, he's undoubtedly part of the Pangborn crew I mentioned earlier..

 

From SK Wiki LINK
Alan J. Pangborn was the sheriff of Castle Rock, Maine for a decade, between 1981 and 1991. He succeeded George Bannerman as sheriff and faced two major adversaries in his town: the first against George Stark (The Dark Half) and the second against Leland Gaunt, the owner of the 'Needful Things' shop.  (see more info at the link)

Pangborn doesn't go back that far.  Interesting that his last year as sheriff coincides with Lacy capturing No Name and 11 year old Henry's missing days -- 1991.

yep. the dates are interesting.


And that car driver (Gordon also, right?). There's something wrong with him.

Big John wrote:

Second scene of the episode begins like this.




Based on the pic below, I'm making a guess that No Name spent a fair amount of time at the Desjardins house where he learned to play the piano. As we see in the pic, the piano has crashed through the ceiling into the kitchen probably due to water damage.

Thank you Thank you Thank you for finding this. I love the concept of the piano crashing through the ceiling due to water damage---while No Name was on the ceiling of the real estate bldg (and the roof) while fire is the dominant elemental force.

davidalan wrote:

I wonder if Ruth wanted to put Reverend Deaver out of his misery after his injuries. I could see Deaver having a fever on top of everything else. Maybe she wanted her husband out of the way. Molly maybe acted on all that, as well as on the history between Deaver and Henry, which may not have been good. I don't know. Need more episodes!

Good thinking here. Interesting.

sandi wrote:

davidalan wrote:

I forgot about the figure (now soap) and the expansive diorama. Maybe No Name is using a visual to place himself in the town. Had he lost his identity up to that point? On a weirder note, it also reminded me of the results of onanism, or sex.

Does this tie-in to the show and if it does, could you explain further.

Sandi just wants to hear you talk about sex, David.

davidalan wrote:

And that car driver (Gordon also, right?). There's something wrong with him.

Car driver?

Big John wrote:

Let us all not forget the biggest clue we have about No Name - The Touch of Death. This isn't some mystical bystander bearing witness. Perhaps Sandi is correct about him being the 4th horseman. Even though that seems pretty far out for a SK bad guy and even though I don't buy it, I haven't ruled it out cuz it could maybe possibly fit.

Otherwise though, and more likely, we're looking at an evil force who has possessed a body which is 'coincidentally' played by the same actor who played Pennywise last year in a SK movie, a character who shows up in Castle Rock every 27 years. Plus ... to list them all would be exhausting but so many other things point to No Name being Pennywise. Even you, David, pointed out how your brother noticed the similarity of the fist bump and the Pennywise scene in the sewer.

I get how it seems too easy at this point in the show and it would be fun to still have a mystery to solve. Pretty sure there ARE still more mysteries to solve within this show.

As I was typing, I had this thought. Since it's been 27 years that Pennywise has been inactive, who has arrived in town? Henry is back. Gordon is back. No Name is free.

I'm about to contradict everything I just typed. Could Henry somehow be Pennywise? Could Pennywise have somehow escaped No Name's body in 1991 and jumped into Henry's body? What's up with the ringing in Henry's ear?

I think that No Name could indeed be some biblical force. Death is a good choice. Others are too. I have no idea who he truly is. I just have guesses.


No coincidence on the same actor playing Pennywise and No Name. In fact, it was a coup. And just to correct things a tad, the Ricksters (my sister) posted that I (her brother) identified the fist pump scene as an It moment. In fact, I kept pointing out all the SK references that I knew about. It's like fun candy doing that. Or a big red balloon.


Oh yes there are a ton of mysteries. That's why this show is so suprisingly wonderful. There's been some criticism around the globe for this show being too slow. What? What? I think the pacing is perfect. I want to know more but I want to enjoy knowing more. I want a continual supply of candy! And big red balloons!

       

Maybe Henry was the initial target of a Pennywise body jump but switched to No Name and was still caught anyway??? Because everybody was looking for Henry but no one cared a stitch for No Name. Maybe both were held at the Desjardins. I don't know. No Name and Henry are together in this somehow. Maybe Henry was ultimately too tough for possession. Or maybe Molly's liking of Henry (connection with his thoughts) was some factor.

Big John wrote:

davidalan wrote:

I wonder if Ruth wanted to put Reverend Deaver out of his misery after his injuries. I could see Deaver having a fever on top of everything else. Maybe she wanted her husband out of the way. Molly maybe acted on all that, as well as on the history between Deaver and Henry, which may not have been good. I don't know. Need more episodes!

Good thinking here. Interesting.

Thanks.

Big John wrote:

sandi wrote:

davidalan wrote:

I forgot about the figure (now soap) and the expansive diorama. Maybe No Name is using a visual to place himself in the town. Had he lost his identity up to that point? On a weirder note, it also reminded me of the results of onanism, or sex.

Does this tie-in to the show and if it does, could you explain further.

Sandi just wants to hear you talk about sex, David.  

I talk about it well, if truth be told. It's a lingual thing...  

Big John wrote:

davidalan wrote:

And that car driver (Gordon also, right?). There's something wrong with him.

Car driver?

I wonder if I remembered this correctly. This guy with a woman in the passenger seat. There was some talk about real estate? Houses and land?

Is that the guy that was looking at warden Lacy's house with his wife and Molly?

okay maybe that was him. was there no car? not even Christine?

Ok -- don't get too excited about this -- well not just yet.

I was trying to find a source for HD screencaps (no luck) but I did come across the following photo.  I'm just cautioning because this is a photo of the actual town where filming takes place.  As such, the series locations may be different and by that I mean -- a building may appear somewhere in a real life photo but in the series, it's really located somewhere else -- for example:  two streets over and at the corner.  I hope to prove this location when I rewatch.

spoiler tagged for size:

I just started the re-watch and after Pangborn finds Henry, we get an overview of the town at night. I think it shows that tptb used the real life actual town setting -- so the HBM house is across the street from the church (across the street on the your right -- the church's left) and it does confirm the year as 2018.

Spoiler tagged for size:

Not convinced it is the same house but maybe.




That pic is from the show. I can cap more overhead shots from the show but I wasn't finding them helpful in relation to any theories.

Are there specific shots or a certain something that you're looking for, Sandi?

Started my rewatch of CR. Hoping I can watch all 5 eps before ep 6 premiers tonight.

1991 - Pangborn taking a break next to a frozen like. Strange loud noise. He looks around. Suddenly, from seemingly out of nowhere, young Henry appears standing on the ice at the center of the lake. Was the noise a distraction so that Pangborn couldn't see Henry suddenly materials right in front of him?

A little over half way through ep1. 1991 - Young Henry is sitting in Pangborn's truck which is parked in front of Henry's house. Pangborn exits truck to go let the Deaver's know he has found their son. Camera goes to Henry's face. Henry looks down at his balled fist. He opens his fist.

He sees this.:

Oh Wow! BJ -- that find alone! Oh Wow!

Now what does it mean? Certainly, Henry must have been around No name!, Right??

Big John wrote:

Started my rewatch of CR. Hoping I can watch all 5 eps before ep 6 premiers tonight.

I thought new episodes were released on Wednesdays?

Big John wrote:

Are there specific shots or a certain something that you're looking for, Sandi?

Certainly any shots that establish certain locations and shots that establish time.  Plus anything like your exceptional Henry "statue in fist" cap.  Do you think the figure is supposed to represent Henry?  I wonder what happened to that figurine?

Need to pay attention to Deaver house to see if we spot it.  

Also -- everyone ...

I was wondering if we should attempt a timeline thread?  Each season will be a new story, but they will be set in the SK Castle Rock universe.  If agreed, before doing so, we will need to think about the time frame and reserve enough consecutive posts in the thread so the timeline is not broken up by other posts.

Yeah, it's Wednesday. I'm so used to all the good shows being on Sunday that I got ahead of myself.

I don't know what the statue means. My guess is that it represents the real bad guy. That's a pure guess though.

Ep1, Lacy offs himself right where Pangborn found Henry in 1991. Henry drives there to check it out. As he approaches the cliff, a figure which looks like young Henry appears behind him, watching him. When Henry turns around, young Henry is not there.

Ep2 shows Zalewski freaking out when he sees/hallucinates all the dead guards on the monitors. What he is seeing appears to be the result of his rampage which hasn't happened yet.

Thinking more about the statue, it could be something that wards off evil.

Great find on the statue. The scene is so early on we don't think to look for such detail.

I like the idea that the statue may ward off evil. Or that someone believes it does.

Also great find that the Happy Birthday House is across the street from Rev. Deaver's church. I wonder if the church is the epicenter. Or more accurately what's below it.

It's funny, as I watch this, many townsfolk believe that Henry did some unspeakable act to his father and think of him as being evil. The Pangborn generation think of No Name as being evil. As we move along, both of them continue to have that evil reputation outed. We know No Name ca ncause evil acts with his touch. What we don't know is what Henry can do. I think therein lies the mystery.

Desjardins to Henry, "You know I never touched you."

Officer to young Molly, "We found Father Deaver. He's barely alive at the bottom of a cliff at Castle lake ... Did he (Henry) talk about wanting to hurt his father?"

Molly replies, "It's not his father."

Molly could be referring to the fact that rev Deav is not Henry's bio father. However, she says "It's" not his father. To me, that sounds more like she is saying rev Deav is not really rev Deav anymore. Hmm....

I found something. Same scene. Ep 2, scene begins at the 36:16 mark, or thereabouts. Young Molly lying in her bed fully covered by her comforter except from her eyes up. Her eyes look dilated but hard to tell.



Cop enters her room to question her. Cop's purpose is to get info from Molly which may help find Henry. Cop mentions how cold it is out there and how warm it is in here and how Henry probably needs help. At the end of the interview, Molly is still fully covered by her comforter from right up to her eyes. When the cop leaves, she removes the comforter to reveal the rest of her face.

This is what we see:

ok that is way creepy

6 days into the search for Henry, young Molly walks barefoot, wearing nothing but a nighty, across the snow covered ground from her house to the Deaver house. She disconnects rev Deav from the Ventilator. Rev Deav awakens and sees her there. He cannot breathe and begins to suffocate. End scene with rev Deav lying still.

This isn't enough proof that he died right then and there from Molly's act. An alarm monitoring his vitals could have sounded shortly thereafter, awaking Ruth who hurriedly reconnects the ventilator. Often, if he were dead, there would be a scene with flashing lights showing him getting carted away. There is no confirmation whatsoever though.

Do we know if rev Deav was pronounced before Henry was found? If so, how many days it was before Henry was found?

Ep3, Molly's dream sequence in the church end with rev Deav echoing 1st Corinthians ch15 v51, 52.

Quote :

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

Much weirdness in ep3, like that trial the children were having where Molly is accused of being the killer.

Molly used to be able feel everything Henry felt. Many examples of this in ep3. Leads me to believe that when she could see her breath in the bedroom scene with the cop, it was actually Henry's breath.

"Has it begun" was spoken by No Name to Henry during their chat inside Shawshank.



NN also asks Henry how old he is during this scene.

Big John wrote:

Do we know if rev Deav was pronounced before Henry was found? If so, how many days it was before Henry was found?

Well, we have this from episode one.

(Reeves is giving this information to Warden Porter.)

REEVES:  Henry Matthew Deaver.  Based out of Houston -- grew up 20 miles that way ...  Castle Rock.  Bad reputation ... big mess with the state police when he was a kid.  Pulled some stunt -- ran away from home.  People thought somebody took him.  Half the state's out looking for him ... middle of winter ... and what they find is his father -- half-froze, and his back's broken.  Doesn't last three days.  Kid comes sashaying back from the dead like Tom Sawyer to find out he's got no dad, and the town blames him.  Claimed he couldn't remember a thing.

Big John wrote:

Officer to young Molly, "We found Father Deaver. He's barely alive at the bottom of a cliff at Castle lake ... Did he (Henry) talk about wanting to hurt his father?"

Molly replies, "It's not his father."

Molly could be referring to the fact that rev Deav is not Henry's bio father. However, she says "It's" not his father. To me, that sounds more like she is saying rev Deav is not really rev Deav anymore. Hmm....

Maybe Rev Deav wasn't Rev Deav for quite some time. Remember Ruth Deavers reaction when she found out his coffin was moved?

So much new good stuff you all. I gotta tell you though I especially love the idea that Molly's breath might have been Henry's breath. I wonder then if everything that happened to Henry Molly felt. And if Henry was initially "possessed" or something, Molly was too.