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Maturin



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PostSubject: "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens   "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens EmptyWed Feb 06, 2019 1:49 am

ABC's new entertainment chief says she'd like to reboot "Lost."

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/lost-will-abc-ever-reboot-it-1182951
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ExpletiveDeleted

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PostSubject: Re: "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens   "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens EmptyWed Feb 06, 2019 1:20 pm

Gee maybe she can get Sally Field on board and reboot Gidget or the Flying Nun while she's at it.

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Maturin



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PostSubject: Re: "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens   "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens EmptyWed Feb 06, 2019 3:04 pm

The Flying Nun was an excellent show.

This producer also wants to reboot Alias, altho that kind of concept gets done all the time now. I think basically she just wants to clone J.J. Abrams for ABC.
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davidalan

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PostSubject: Re: "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens   "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens EmptyWed Feb 06, 2019 5:48 pm

If there's a clone of JJ Abrams, a clone of rope tying him to a chair will also be necessary.

A reboot of Lost? Will it start with the cast finding a secret tunnel out of the death church?

My recommendation: The Island has killed everyone who's ever polluted it and breathes freely until a new round of flashbackers stumble on it during a three hour cruise.

pool
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ExpletiveDeleted

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PostSubject: Re: "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens   "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens EmptyWed Feb 06, 2019 5:59 pm

cant wait for that one maybe i can watch it on a tv made from coconuts and bambo

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His Royal Dorkness

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PostSubject: Re: "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens   "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens EmptyWed Feb 06, 2019 11:13 pm

I'm still trying to finish The Wire, and believe it or not, trying to catch up on Doctor Who... sort of.
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Maturin



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PostSubject: Re: "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens   "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens EmptyThu Feb 07, 2019 1:42 am

I think BA is on to something here. Gilligan's Lost would be the best thing ever.
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MrBill60

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PostSubject: Re: "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens   "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens EmptyThu Feb 07, 2019 12:05 pm

I agree. Hopefully they'll find the mind-reading seeds and have a clue of where they're going and how it's going to end.
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MrBill60

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PostSubject: Re: "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens   "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens EmptyThu Feb 07, 2019 1:03 pm

Isn't there a new series about passengers on a plane and time-travel?   Not sure if they end up on a magical island, though.

eta: Manifest - haven't seen it , is it worth it?
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lostviking

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PostSubject: Re: "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens   "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens EmptyFri Feb 15, 2019 8:16 pm

If it's reboot, I am gonna be an extra if it kills me. :)
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davidalan

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PostSubject: Re: "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens   "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens EmptyFri Feb 15, 2019 11:03 pm

Please, lostviking, for all that is good and pure, stage a coup and take over the writing. ax
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TBC

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PostSubject: Re: "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens   "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens EmptyTue Feb 19, 2019 7:39 am

@lostviking wrote:
If it's reboot, I am gonna be an extra if it kills me. :)

Your five seconds would probably be the only watchable part of the entire show.
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Warthawg1

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PostSubject: Re: "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens   "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens EmptyTue Feb 19, 2019 11:26 am

@Maturin wrote:
I think BA is on to something here. Gilligan's Lost would be the best thing ever.

We've already seen Gilligan's Lost. It aired from 2004-2010, starring Matthew Fox as the iconic Gilligan, Jorge Garcia as The Skipper, Terry O'Quinn as The Professor, Evangeline Lilly as MaryAnne, Emilie de Raven as Ginger, with Yunjin and Daniel Day Kim as Thurston and Lovey Howell.


Funny how both shows needing a reboot were created by that hack, JJ Abrams.
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TBC

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PostSubject: Re: "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens   "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens EmptyTue Feb 19, 2019 2:44 pm

Here's an idea I have been toying with for a while...

Several hundred years in the future, don't matter how long exactly, pick a century out of a hat. Call it 25th. We got FTL drive, artificial gravity, pretty much own the nearest space out to about 150 LY or so radius, which seems like a lot, heck, it is a lot of room, but it's only a very tiny sliver of this galaxy. We have found several dozen planets suitable for habitation with minimal tinkering and we are still tying to get people moved into them. We have only met one alien intelligence thus far and it didn't go well. Bumped into them a little over a century back, we tried to be peaceful, they had other ideas, all attempts at communication failed, but it turned out that they were not so billy bad-ass as they though they were. In the end we completely eradicated them out of necessity. They refused to cease fighting even when facing annihilation. A short, ugly war which ended in total eradication of an entire civilization about which we knew almost nothing. Their space is off...that way...somewhere, only a few of our abandoned military installations, hastily constructed and just as quickly obsolete, remain. There are no active nav beacons, there's nothing in any astrogation database available for private-sector usage. Any ship that flies in there might as well be flying into uncharted space, and the difference is about the same as driving around in an unfamiliar city without a roadmap versus driving around in your home town. That's the meta.

Here's the story set up. Grandson of someone who was a researcher in the war has a piece of abandoned tech. It's great, and he can not figure out why it was abandoned, except that his grand pappy's notes said that it was "dangerous". At least according to some folks. Gramps had made off with it and kept it hid in case some day there would be a use for it. Grandson has decided he's got a perfect one. It's a device for teleporting objects. The drawback to it is that it creates a fairly large field and teleports everything within that field, so you can not just send a single person. You can, however, send an entire space ship. He gets in touch with a friend who has a small freighter which can be operated by two people, tells him about the teleporter, after the usual "keep this a secret, mate" stuff, they test it out surreptitiously a few times and it works over some very long distances. A little brainstorming, they finally hatch a plan. Hijack a space liner.

Here's the gritty. Ship owner has a pal who is in a dead end job with a space transport company. She works in the Personnel division, involved in the hiring process the entire company, and she is getting fed up with the place. Ship owner decides to bring her in as the one who will put them inside. They recruit a few more trusted pals, get everyone in the operation they need, then put the whole plan together. The idea will be to stow the teleporter aboard a liner and in mid-run hook it up to ship's power and activate it. But where to send it. Some research reveals the locations of several of the old bases from the war. Not just their locations, but also their drift, and a trip out in the freighter finds one of then still in great shape. Further, then, they will plant a beacon at the base, which is on an asteroid orbiting a small star, the ship will emerge close to it with no nav data on the region, and naturally the Captain will order the ship to proceed there. Once there they will fake an extreme power loss requiring evacuation to the station, which they will have stocked with food and supplies for several months, and once everyone is offloaded they will teleport the ship away to another location where they will strip off everything not traceable, netting enough goods to make them all very wealthy, push the ship into a star, and leave an anonymous message with the location of the crew and passengers. That's "The Plan".

How it would work out in the story though is different. It would start aboard the liner, and the "WTF" moment when the Captain and crew suddenly find themselves in a very different place, with an unexplained power loss, having to evacuate to an old base he knows nothing about but seems to be functional, and just after he gets all his crew (he thinks) and passengers offloaded his ship vanishes right before his eyes, no more than a mile away from him. Some feet away a well-dressed older passenger who has been been looking at the base with disbelief spins around abruptly at the shouts of "Where did it go?" and "The ship...it vanished!". You see the gears churn for a moment, and then the wheel stops on "Aghast". He grabs the Purser next to him and says "Tell the Captain that we must leave this place now. All of us." The Purser replies "Sir, we can't. There's just the two 10-person skiffs we ferried everyone over on and there are over 300 people here, and there's nowhere to..." he pauses at the look in the elderly man's eyes for a moment, then resumes on a different tack. "But please Sir. Why is it so urgent?" The gentleman looks at his wife and then at the Purser. "I spent nearly 30 years supplying contracts for the military and I learned a lot of things about what went on during the war. You read a bit about that in school, remember? It was nasty, short, and we killed an entire race because they gave us no other option. This base is somewhere in the middle of their space, so we are probably 200 light years away from Earth, and we got here by means of a teleportation device which was invented during the war. Invented and abandoned as very dangerous. The problem is that teleportation violates certain laws of physics as we know them so in order to actually pull it off it causes a blow-back effect in the vicinity of the point of origin. I don't know to what degree, but the greater the distance jumped the greater the effect, and that is that for a time the laws of the universe as we know them go...wonky. It's not an issue of a ship jumps from a point in deep space. There's nothing around. But that ship just lumped off to who-knows-where from less than half a mile from us. It's about to get a little unpredictable here..."
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Maturin



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PostSubject: Re: "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens   "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens EmptyTue Feb 19, 2019 11:30 pm

"... then the wheel stops on 'Aghast.'" 55

Have you worked out what happens next? How everything goes wonky? Are you writing it down? I have no idea how story submissions operate, but maybe you could send a more developed version (characters, plot ideas, etc) of this as a pilot idea. You could mix all kinds of genres in there.

@Warthawg1 wrote:
@Maturin wrote:
I think BA is on to something here. Gilligan's Lost would be the best thing ever.

We've already seen Gilligan's Lost. It aired from 2004-2010, starring Matthew Fox as the iconic Gilligan, Jorge Garcia as The Skipper, Terry O'Quinn as The Professor, Evangeline Lilly as MaryAnne, Emilie de Raven as Ginger, with Yunjin and Daniel Day Kim as Thurston and Lovey Howell.


Funny how both shows needing a reboot were created by that hack, JJ Abrams.

lol2
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TBC

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PostSubject: Re: "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens   "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens EmptyWed Feb 20, 2019 2:07 am

Let me think about what would happen after that and get back to you...
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Maturin



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PostSubject: Re: "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens   "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens EmptyWed Feb 20, 2019 2:01 pm

Well, easy for me to tell someone else to get to work on a long, complex project while I eat bon-bons. :p But I'd be interested in what happens next (the hallmark of a good story). We need to set up a big character board. All the work that went into those character threads and philosophical discussions at the old forum ... it breaks the heart.

One theory I had early on in Lost was that there layers of timelines occurring simultaneously in the same scene (I think it was my explanation for the Whispers). There have been movies and shows that tried something a bit like that [tried to spoiler tag two examples, but they were visible gah]. They tend to involve one person; it would be cool to carry that off with multiple characters interacting on different levels but in the same scene. It could play on a screen or even a stage, but I don't know how it would work in a book.

Just at the start of your synopsis, I thought it was a Lost parody [Lost in Space ;) ]. But then pretty quickly I was trying to picture the story -- love anything about universes punishing physics lawbreakers. [Highly recommend the movie "Spiderman-man: Into the Spider-verse," which touches on that]
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davidalan

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PostSubject: Re: "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens   "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens EmptyWed Feb 20, 2019 2:19 pm

or Lost In The Space Between Abrams' Ears...


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Warthawg1

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PostSubject: Re: "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens   "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens EmptyWed Feb 20, 2019 6:49 pm

I now have no idea what is going on in this thread.
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davidalan

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PostSubject: Re: "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens   "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens EmptyWed Feb 20, 2019 11:05 pm

What? Why? It's as clear as Lost! tv wth
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MrBill60

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PostSubject: Re: "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens   "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens EmptyThu Feb 21, 2019 4:33 pm

They should reboot it and it should focus on a submarine crew where the captain and crew go awol after being given an illegal launch order. They refused to fire and have been declared enemies by elements in the US Government who have set them up.    They happen to find a mysterious island where they seek refuge and remain independent.   There are conflicts with the local inhabitants of the island (aka "The Others") who are working on a secret project.  It was called "The Last Resort" and I enjoyed the series up to the point when it was cancelled by ABC.
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His Royal Dorkness

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PostSubject: Re: "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens   "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens EmptyThu Feb 21, 2019 9:46 pm

TBC, i love it. Don't stop now.

@Maturin wrote:
Well, easy for me to tell someone else to get to work on a long, complex project while I eat bon-bons. :p But I'd be interested in what happens next (the hallmark of a good story). We need to set up a big character board. All the work that went into those character threads and philosophical discussions at the old forum ... it breaks the heart.

One theory I had early on in Lost was that there layers of timelines occurring simultaneously in the same scene (I think it was my explanation for the Whispers). There have been movies and shows that tried something a bit like that [tried to spoiler tag two examples, but they were visible gah]. They tend to involve one person; it would be cool to carry that off with multiple characters interacting on different levels but in the same scene. It could play on a screen or even a stage, but I don't know how it would work in a book.

Just at the start of your synopsis, I thought it was a Lost parody [Lost in Space ;) ]. But then pretty quickly I was trying to picture the story -- love anything about universes punishing physics lawbreakers. [Highly recommend the movie "Spiderman-man: Into the Spider-verse," which touches on that]
Great post. Love the Heroes reference. I'm jealous b/c i haven't seen that Spiderman movie yet. I lovingly recall my old issues of Peter Porker, the Spectacular Spider-Ham, also recall Spider-Pig from that The Simpsons' Movie

@Warthawg1 wrote:
I now have no idea what is going on in this thread.
lol you think something's going on in this thread
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Falco

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PostSubject: Re: "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens   "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens EmptyFri Feb 22, 2019 7:20 am

TBC, nice work.
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TBC

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PostSubject: Re: "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens   "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens EmptySun Feb 24, 2019 7:48 pm

"What could happen next" could be basically anything. All I have done is create a set-up for an open-ended scenario. You have an unstated number of people, the passengers and crew of the the space liner, about to be hit by an unquantified effect. About the only thing known is that "the normal rules of physics do not seem to apply" which leaves quite a bit of space for a writer to do anything he wants without needing to rely on such restrictions as "possible" or even "probable". It's sort of like when the Heart of Gold was approaching the planet, the defense system activated, fired two missiles, the ship's Infinite Improbability Drive was still active and turned one of the missiles into a large whale, the other into a bowl of petunias which saw Arthur Dent looking out the window and thought "Oh no, not again." The challenge then is making that all interesting. You can lose your audience quite easily by having things go too "freaky deaky".
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Pi-O-My

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PostSubject: Re: "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens   "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens EmptyWed Jul 03, 2019 4:32 pm

@TBC wrote:
...You can lose your audience quite easily by having things go too "freaky deaky".  

Yes, especially when it isn’t logically consistent within its own narrative And thanks for the enjoyable Season 1, TBC!

This seems the logical place to pass along the news/trivia/snarkfight linked below. Note the ad midway down for Lindelof’s latest.  Also note, if you’re familiar with the original, that none of the characters are from Moore’s book except for Veidt/Ozymandias and Senator Keene. (And possibly Pirate Jenny, although Janni Dakkar shows up in the League of Extraordinary Genetlemen series, not with Watchmen’s Black Freighter. And Moore’s Janni/Jenny’s traumatizing experiences are right up HBO’s alley regarding mistreatment of women.) So I think the new series isn’t going to have any connection to the original beyond a bunch of outlawed vigilantes, I guess in Rorschach masks, and the countdown Smiley clock. And there’s a shot in the trailer, about 45 seconds in, that looks like the Black Freighter storyline. Unlike in the movie, maybe Lindelof will decide to include the (squid) secret island.

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/06/30/watchmen-damon-lindelof-has-not-forgotten-george-r-r-martins-lost-finale-slights/
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TBC

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PostSubject: Re: "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens   "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens EmptySat Jul 06, 2019 3:42 am

Alan Moore...sigh. I REALLY hate him. It's not just his treatment of women characters although that is not to be discounted (Barbara Gordon was only an extreme case, the most egregious part was him trying to lay all the blame at Len Wein's feet.), it is treatment of all characters. The term used is "dissembling", like it's polite or something, but his MO is to completely violate the character's established nature and background.

How does he operate? Let's pic a famous character he's never gotten his mitts on as an example: Peter Parker.

We know the background, but I will state it for the purposes of the illustration. Parker's parents died so he was raised by his aunt and uncle, Ben and May. Ben instilled a very solid ethic of right and wrong, hard work, no short-cuts, fair play, etc. in young Peter. In high school Peter was bitten by a spider which had been exposed to gamma radiation and gained some nifty powers. He was strong and could climb walls. He also figured out how to make a web fluid and invented a wrist-mounted dispenser...one wonders why he stopped with the innovations there, he could have been the Marvel Universe version of Batman. Oh, wait...he also developed "Spider Sense" to warn him of danger or things not being right and made little tracers that only his Spider Sense could follow.

Then one night, not long after getting his new abilities, while Parker is off playing around on the rooftops of New York City enjoying his new toys some toughs try to rob his uncle. One of them pulls out a blade and kills him. Parker is distraught. He believes he has failed to protect his uncle when he had the ability to do so. This is the genesis of Spider-Man. Spidey wasn't created when Peter Parker was bitten by that radioactive spider. He was created when Parker determined to use the power he had gained to protect ordinary people from those who would abuse them. "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility." But he also had constraints on how he used that power. If he abused his power it would be a betrayal the legacy of the one person he had failed to protect, the person who had raised him and taught him about doing things in what he viewed as the "right way" even if it was often the harder way. So Parker never diverged from this path, even as Daily Bugle editor J. Jonah Jameson called him a rogue vigilante who needed to be unmasked for the public good.

But what would Moore do with Parker? Considering his track record, it's easy to figure out. Moore would have Parker getting tired of a never-ending parade of criminals. After one of them remarks "This is the fourth time you have dropped me off at this precinct, Web Slinger. I'll be back on the street in two days." he decides he's had enough of due process and become more proactive. He creates an alter-alter-ego who IS the rogue vigilante Jameson claims. This night killer does not use webs. It just attacks in the darkness and murders with sheer strength. Eventually, because dramatic storytelling, there would be an identity crisis within Parker, the night killer vs Spider-Man, and I don't know, write your own ending from there. Do it right and the fans will eat it up because they love that horse crap. Pay no attention to the fact the the whole scenario violates the basic nature of Spider-Man.
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His Royal Dorkness

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PostSubject: Re: "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens   "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens EmptySat Jul 06, 2019 5:34 pm

@Pi-O-My wrote:
@TBC wrote:
...You can lose your audience quite easily by having things go too "freaky deaky".  

Yes, especially when it isn’t logically consistent within its own narrative And thanks for the enjoyable Season 1, TBC!

This seems the logical place to pass along the news/trivia/snarkfight linked below. Note the ad midway down for Lindelof’s latest.  Also note, if you’re familiar with the original, that none of the characters are from Moore’s book except for Veidt/Ozymandias and Senator Keene. (And possibly Pirate Jenny, although Janni Dakkar shows up in the League of Extraordinary Genetlemen series, not with Watchmen’s Black Freighter. And Moore’s Janni/Jenny’s traumatizing experiences are right up HBO’s alley regarding mistreatment of women.) So I think the new series isn’t going to have any connection to the original beyond a bunch of outlawed vigilantes, I guess in Rorschach masks, and the countdown Smiley clock. And there’s a shot in the trailer, about 45 seconds in, that looks like the Black Freighter storyline. Unlike in the movie, maybe Lindelof will decide to include the (squid) secret island.

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/06/30/watchmen-damon-lindelof-has-not-forgotten-george-r-r-martins-lost-finale-slights/

I'd heard of this, and Mrs. Mo and i are considering giving it a try. I think we will, but i don't have high long term hopes for it.

Martin is such a reprehensible hypocrite sometimes.  He had almost nothing to do with how GoT ended. I wouldn't necessarily mind him taking a crap on LOST's ending, except...

Quote :
What if I fuck it up at the end? What if I do a ‘Lost’? Then they’ll come after me with pitchforks and torches.

Is a REALLY revealing quote at the same time as being an utter lie. He has no confidence in his ability to coherently end a story because he's never ended a story. To make the statement a lie, though, he implies that he's writing the end of GoT. Coward. Liar. I know writers lie, and i'm generally cool with that, but lying about writing is generally where i draw the line. He's essentially taking credit for someone else's work.

@TBC wrote:
Alan Moore...sigh. I REALLY hate him. It's not just his treatment of women characters although that is not to be discounted (Barbara Gordon was only an extreme case, the most egregious part was him trying to lay all the blame at Len Wein's feet.), it is treatment of all characters. The term used is "dissembling", like it's polite or something, but his MO is to completely violate the character's established nature and background.

How does he operate? Let's pic a famous character he's never gotten his mitts on as an example: Peter Parker.

We know the background, but I will state it for the purposes of the illustration. Parker's parents died so he was raised by his aunt and uncle, Ben and May. Ben instilled a very solid ethic of right and wrong, hard work, no short-cuts, fair play, etc. in young Peter. In high school Peter was bitten by a spider which had been exposed to gamma radiation and gained some nifty powers. He was strong and could climb walls. He also figured out how to make a web fluid and invented a wrist-mounted dispenser...one wonders why he stopped with the innovations there, he could have been the Marvel Universe version of Batman. Oh, wait...he also developed "Spider Sense" to warn him of danger or things not being right and made little tracers that only his Spider Sense could follow.

Then one night, not long after getting his new abilities, while Parker is off playing around on the rooftops of New York City enjoying his new toys some toughs try to rob his uncle. One of them pulls out a blade and kills him. Parker is distraught. He believes he has failed to protect his uncle when he had the ability to do so. This is the genesis of Spider-Man. Spidey wasn't created when Peter Parker was bitten by that radioactive spider. He was created when Parker determined to use the power he had gained to protect ordinary people from those who would abuse them. "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility." But he also had constraints on how he used that power. If he abused his power it would be a betrayal the legacy of the one person he had failed to protect, the person who had raised him and taught him about doing things in what he viewed as the "right way" even if it was often the harder way. So Parker never diverged from this path, even as Daily Bugle editor J. Jonah Jameson called him a rogue vigilante who needed to be unmasked for the public good.

But what would Moore do with Parker? Considering his track record, it's easy to figure out. Moore would have Parker getting tired of a never-ending parade of criminals. After one of them remarks "This is the fourth time you have dropped me off at this precinct, Web Slinger. I'll be back on the street in two days." he decides he's had enough of due process and become more proactive. He creates an alter-alter-ego who IS the rogue vigilante Jameson claims. This night killer does not use webs. It just attacks in the darkness and murders with sheer strength. Eventually, because dramatic storytelling, there would be an identity crisis within Parker, the night killer vs Spider-Man, and I don't know, write your own ending from there. Do it right and the fans will eat it up because they love that horse crap. Pay no attention to the fact the the whole scenario violates the basic nature of Spider-Man.      
I like that you mention the analogy of Spiderman and Batman. They have a lot of similarities and are often considered analogous. But Parker is a struggling student and freelance photog who lives with his widowed aunt in an apartment. While Wayne is a playboy billionaire who lives with his butler in a mansion that is also a superfortress and superlab, complete with secret entrances. Others have said that Superman is the more fitting DC version of Spiderman, as Batman has no "superpowers." I agree with the Batman viewpoint for a few reasons, primarily the fact that bats and spiders both inspire fear and creep people the hell out; and also because Parker developed his web-shooters, as well as a couple other minor gadgets here and there, including using his camera to pay his bills. Also Parker and Wayne were both born on Earth; i don't think there is a fitting Marvel analog for Superman. But i've now rambled and am off point.

To your greater point, i think Moore deserves some credit for creativity, and while i won't try to claim that his characters aren't often formulaic, there are some very notable exceptions: his Swamp Thing run that really developed his early fandbase and i think even some of the Watchmen deal with their disillusionment in varying ways. I think that the fact that that variety didn't include a Parkeresque refusal to compromise ethically/morally was a valid critique of the social evolution of the 20th century. Ultimately Doc Manhattan couldn't escape nor deny his own humanity, and the irony that his attempts to do so expedited that failure wasn't narrative convenience but instead "felt" like a natural progression. Ultimately even ostensibly "nice" characters like Laurie (Lori?) and Daniel needed to cut loose and beat the living crap out of a bunch of criminals before stripping down to get their freak on. As "nice" as they are, they needed some violence to get good and horny.

Let's pretend to forget that Moore also wrote V For Vendetta, even though i loved it but hope never to read it again.

He wrote From Hell, which is widely considered the most likely speculation/theory explaining the horrific series of murders in London generally attributed to Jack The Ripper. Personally i think the H.H. Holmes speculation is fun but unsupportable. I'd be thrilled to some more thoughts on this from anybody reading this.

I can understand why reading Alan Moore's "original" characters gets old. On the other hand, milksops like Steve Rogers and Clark Kent become tiresome too. Does this conversation directly relate to your dislike of the overuse of tropes?

I think it's worth mentioning that some of the characters Moore introduced appeared in other places, but whether or not it's fair to attribute to Moore characters who were archetypes in antiquity and were only really fully fleshed out by Gaiman.

I also think it's fair to call Moore a throwback misogynist, and it seeps into every little crevice of his work.
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PostSubject: Re: "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens   "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens EmptyFri Jul 26, 2019 5:48 am

Wow. You put a lot of meat in there. It's taken a few readings and some weeks to have the time to compose a partial reply.

Starting small, taking a look at From Hell. Saw it once, *channels Men on Film* Hated it!. For plausibility, velociraptors in the BBC series Primeval is about as plausible.

There are really only a few things we know about the killer.
First is that he dismembered his victims in a precise manner using a very sharp knife.
Second is that he taunted the police with letters signed 'Jack".
Third is that he was apparently interrupted while in the process of dismembering one victim, moved a short distance away, killed again and completed a full dismemberment of that one.

There is a lot of fantasy about "Jack". Much of it springs from the original investigation. I watched a docu some years ago on it. Very fascinating show. The police were clueless in the time of the killings but began to investigate possibilities in the years immediately afterwards. Invariably they focused their attention on doctors, foreigners, and members of the nobility. I suppose a "Jack" being a doctor would make sense given the precise mutilation, but why a foreigner or a minor noble? The answer was that in the "Penny Dreadfuls" the lurid fiction magazines of the day such as The Strand which originally published Doyle's Sherlock Holmes stories, the evil murderer was most commonly a doctor or a foreigner, or a minor member of the nobility. In other words, they had allowed their investigation to be steered by the popular culture prejudices of the period, to the exclusion of other options. This slanting of the investigation, unfortunately, continues into modern times.

So let's have a look at "Jack" again, as Doyle would have Holmes do it.

The killing happened while Holmes was "dead", actually hiding from the subordinates of the late Prof. Moriarty, but now that those have been dealt with he is free to turn his attention to finding the killer's identity, well after the killings have ceased. He has talked with the officers who were at the crime scenes, viewed the photographs, now is ready to make his own observations on the case.

First, "Jack" is definitely neither a foreigner nor a noble. The close proximity of the two killings suggests that he is or was a person able to move freely in Whitechapel without arousing suspicion or even being noticed.

Second, he's is most likely not a doctor. Doctors are not the only people who use sharp knives in their trade and they are rare enough that one on the streets of the district at night would run the risk of being recognized. Any obvious attempt at obfuscation would only invite further attention.

Third, the double killing indicates that the mutilation rather than the killing itself was the intent of the action. "Jack" has/had a need not just to kill, but to destroy, and he did so in an obsessive manner.

Fourth, we can't read much into the taunting letters. Even if it is proven that the killer did write them, which is something which I have never heard of, all they reveal is that it is a person of at least moderate learning.

Had I been present at the time of the killings I might have been of some benefit. Alas, matters elsewhere prevented this. The best I can do is draw up a list of categories which I believe the killer must fall into one of. The killer known as "Jack" is either a butcher, or else a crime figure with pimp the most likely sort, or a police officer, or a woman in her 30s.

Yours
S. Holmes.
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His Royal Dorkness

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PostSubject: Re: "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens   "Lost" Reboot? Whatever Happens, Happens EmptySat Aug 10, 2019 10:43 am

I haven't seen From Hell, but i've read it, and from the contents of your post, it seems that there are some significant differences.

In the graphic novel, "Jack" isn't a doctor nor nobility; he's lower echelon aristocracy, which i'll grant is a far leap from a city commoner, but it's also a far leap from someone who'd be instantly recognizable to city commoners. He uses a closed but modest coach to travel around London, and dresses down when stalking his prey in Whitechapel. The graphic accounts for the 5 "canonical" murders in Whitechapel attributed to the Ripper. It proposes the the minor aristocrat (and retired military officer, iirc) is asked by Queen Victoria to deal with three women who are trying to blackmail the royal family with proof that the royal prince has been habitually visiting an house of ill repute that specializes in homosexuality. So that is the motive for him being given license to kill. When he makes the first kill, he first flies into a rage, which appears to be part of a psychotic break he experiences as a result of his schizophrenia; he then finds himself fascinated with the colors of the internal organs, so he repeats the ripping with the following murders so that he can play with the internal organs and enjoy their colors.

The double murder is explained as essentially a mistake. He spends too long with the target, having utterly lost track of time while playing with her corpse, when her roommate comes home.

The fifth murder wasn't part of the contract at all, and the Queen has "Jack" placed in a Sanitarium at that point, where he spends the last few years of his life going in and out of fugue states.

In the graphic novel, the taunting letters are written by a newspaperman.

Moore definitely went out on some limbs and also took plenty of artistic license, but it was painstakingly researched so as not to contradict any of the established facts of the case, and the graphic novel that *I* read had an extensive bibliography as well as copious notes from Moore about what in his story was established fact, what was based on rumours, and what he just made up.

_______________

Regardless, i respect your right to hate him as a writer, and i think you have a point about a technique he frequently uses, and i can see why you dislike it. Personally i think that technique was brilliant when it was applied to Swamp-Thing, and DC took a heck of a chance letting him not only turn a horror story into a romance, but also at the time (1984) no major comic book publisher had run a title without the "Approved By The Comics Code Authority" seal. The CCA refused to put their seal on Moore's Swamp-Thing run because of sexual content, but DC decided to print them anyway. The fact that it was a big success has a lot to do with the proliferation of comics and graphic novels not aimed specifically for children.

I know that you personally are into a lot of Japanese Manga, and Moore & DC may not have exactly paved the way for that stuff's content in any specific way, but it did show US publishers that there was already a solid market extant. Would we probably have had Dark Horse and DC Vertigo etc eventually anyway? Sure. But personally, every time i see something like the Constantine movie or the Preacher TV series, i think we owe a debt of gratitude to Moore and DC for taking the chance that they did, when they did.
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