Game of Thrones

Oh, the Red God also had something to do with that bizarre shit where Melisandre got naked in front of Davos, after he smuggled her into some cavern) to bear Stannis's smoke/shadow-thing "son" (for those who forget, Melisandre actually told Stannis she'd deliver him a son as the final nail in the coffin of her seduction).

Stannis and Melisandre's "son" killed Renly. A lot of people had BS visions by staring into flames. Thoros was allowed to bring Beric back from the dead umpteen times, and Melisandre brought Jon back once. I think that covers it all.

I guess we could infer that The Red God didn't want the Army of Darkness to win at Winterfell, and somehow it was necessary for Renly to be killed by a smoke monster prince baby, and Beric brought the Hound, who gave Arya some kind of inspiration to get freaky with Gendry, and somehow all that works to ensure that Arya could implement Jon's trap.

Welcome to Game of Thrones schism-quality writing for episode 6 the alleged finale.

I already posted in the "usurper thread" hahaha that basically tyrion had the best moments in the episode and then in my opinion one of the very worst. He was great until his speech to the lords and ladies. And then he couldn't be believed both as a character and unfortunately as an actor but the writing itself was the worst element of that speech. it was terrible. And as I also said not because Bran was chosen but because there was no or very little viable foundation leading to that moment. And then the speech about stories was just thrust upon us.


As for Bran's choice I said I could live with it but what I couldn't live with nearly as much was how little time the era of the new governance of Westeros received. It should have been an episode in and of itself. I liked Bran relegating himself to the task of finding Drogon and leaving the others to their tasks. But that band of people there---they were so awkward together. I wish the other posts were filled and you got a sense of the dynamic. Plus other events around Westeros and Essos for that matter could have been explored. Where Drogon did fly off to. Greyworm and the Unsullied---something of their actions. The Dothraki---now that would be an interesting repatriation. But also Sansa and her new court. I can't quite figure out how the North can be totally separated from the rest of Westeros as such. My thought is the rest of the Kingdoms should have petitioned for a confederation more than a loyal union. Sure have the central gov in Kings Landing but have it be more like the UN with some centralized powers and certainly a centralized navy and army to take care of any troublemakers (the iron islands come to mind). But Sansa needed more time. She needed to form a government. And to figure out her relationship with the South. And then Arya. Off to points West? Where's the foundation for this? If we had her looking out at sea a lot or a ship and pondering then maybe. But even so there should have been tangible references. In fact we should have seen her first landing. We should have seen the crew. Is she captain or crew? That was a mess.

Meanwhile there's Jon. Now Jon didn't bother me this episode as much as he did others on the internet and on some youtube reviews and recaps. I thought he was placed well as one of the characters outraged by Daenerys' genocide. But we needed more time with Jon and his dilemma. He seemed like a fast-forward Hamlet at times. And in terms of the assassination itself where were Daenerys' guards. Was she so sure about her triumph that she felt she needed none? Sloppy writing here. What should have happened really was that the assassination of Daenerys happened but the culprit was unknown. Blame Jon that would be fine. But he wasn't the only one who was appalled. Again Arya would have been the best candidate. One more disguise for the road. One more assassination for the road. But she had to keep quiet even when Jon would be implicated. For Sansa's sake. And probably Jon, who would figure out Arya's involvement, would tell her so.


The best part of the Jon and Daenerys dance however was Drogon. Whenever he was around the scene was better. His hiding under ash was terrific. His rage and burning the iron throne splendid at least visually. Was the story suggesting that Drogon instinctively knew that Daenerys had made a mistake? Or was Drogon removing the Throne for future use? Or was he just mad and he couldn't burn Jon so he burned the throne? Drogon was so cool. But in real life I think Drogon would have been with Daenerys if the guards weren't. Daenerys thought she was invincible but the rest of us knew that the handwriting was on the script.

And then there was Jon's exile. Back home more like it. His true home. Not in Winterfell. Certainly not in Dragonstone or in Kings Landing. But the Wall. And this time beyond the wall. Reunited with Ghost. And in essence being a ghost. And leaving civilized Westeros behind. I think it's a better place for him. And he will have a lot of people to worry about. He'll thrive there. But did the scene work entirely? I guess. I predicted the last scene would be in the North but I didn't think it would be that far north. I think what the last scene lacked was talking. Although with all the talking from the very first scene of Game of Thrones maybe silence was the better counterpoint. I think some talking though. At least between Jon and Tormund. About where they're going. Maybe right at the beginning. And then silence. Long silence. The silence could have lasted between two and five minutes and it would have been right. Maybe the occasional kid's voice. And Ghost making a sound. And the wind. But that's it. But in basically an epilog final episode more time could have been given to this moment and to everything. And I think everything needed more time.

I enjoyed this explanation of the show. I wasn't looking for an apologist. I was looking for an analysis of events. And this guy even pointed out things he wanted to be different. And maybe if you pinned him down, he would say no this or that didn't work. But what I wished while listening to him and to his insight was I wish he was one of the showrunners and/or writers. I think he would have cared more about the quality of the show.

But fear not! The comments section is complete with disagreement disappointment anger and sarcasm. As I think it should be. But I nonetheless appreciated the analytical approach of the narrator. It makes me wish as well that I could have his eyes and see things clearly. But for that I fear I would have needed a better show.

My favorite part of the episode was that jane was right about the Iron Throne's fate, and that you, BA, absolutely nailed how it met that fate.

I have plenty more to say, but idk yet if i'll bother.

I nailed it? Excellent.

Meanwhile I was thinking again about Jon's exile to the farthest north. And I wonder which surname he'd take. Certainly not Targaryan after assassinating Daenerys. And I don't think Stark because even though he was (mostly) accepted in the Stark family he was a Targaryan by birth---well if the father's surname was the only one that counted. I think he keeps the name Snow. That was how he was known at the Wall. And the Wall was where he felt his finest belonging. Even with the murder. Well you know. So I say he is and remains Jon Snow. And by that definition he could never live anywhere but in the North minimally but at the Wall for certain and now beyond the Wall because Tormund and his community are welcoming him because he had helped them in their direst hour. So Jon walking away from the Wall and away from traditional Westeros wasn't punishment in the least. It was a blessing. And it was more believable than Sansa being able to detach Winterfell from the realm. And there I believed Sansa way more than the script.

I'm sorry. It was WartyOne who called it!

Jane wrote:

In the end there will be no Iron Throne.
Valar Morghulis.

Warthawg1 wrote:

Jane wrote:

In the end there will be no Iron Throne.
Valar Morghulis.

Drogon is going to turn it molten.

For me, if i could have pretended to believe in Bran becoming High King by near unanimous accord, after several idioticies directly leading to that, pretending to believe that he'd let Sansa keep The North separate would have been easy.

I despised Dany's character arc this season, but with that in mind her death could've been worse. There were probably at least 100 better ways she could've died inside the same character arc, but after everything that'd been done to her by the writers this season, i actually didn't hate her actual death scene.

Jon's end makes sense in a "Jon Snow really is actually an almost perfect analog for Thomas Tudbury, The Great And Powerful Turtle way." It doesn't make the slightest sense in a Westeros with any sort of consistent society, even with the most powerful military being Dothraki and Unsullied. I thought his arc was really good when he died. It's unfortunate that it didn't end there.

I was glad they didn't bring back any recently dead characters with a "no, they only almost died" bullshit plot twist.

I was glad Arya didn't go marry Gendry.

Brienne as head of the Kingsguard made sense. Sam as Grand Maester makes sense. Davos as Master of Ships makes sense.

I'm glad it's over. That's a crappy way to feel about a show that was so good for so long and stayed high quality in important ways all the way through, but there it is anyway.

Yeah I wondered what I had nailed. It was a good call by Warty. It was one of the best moments of the scene even though some people have a problem with the dragon aiming at the throne with some kind of intent. I think why not. The dragon is not precisely an animal alone. It is a magical creature that responds to command and which apparently has feelings. Of course it could have just felt rage and shot off its fire in a direction that wasn't Jon. And the throne happened to be there. For me as I said any time Drogon was on screen this episode was better. I wish he had stayed for the election of the new king or queen.

As I said there were always be a tie between the realm and the North. The North can claim independence all day but there will be daily contact through trade or through emissaries or even ravens. Sansa however should never travel south at least not without an army as she wisely did.

The problem with Jon Snow's arc was the same with Daenerys' arc especially this season and likely last season as well. Jon and Daenerys as presented felt sometimes as though they were in a different show. Plus with the shortened season some things apparently had to be implied or voiced about which led in terms of GOT to rickety story telling. Jon and Daenerys needed a lot more time together before solidifying their lust. And they needed as much time falling part as they came together to justify Daenerys' descent into madness (or just delusional dictatorship) and Jon's reasons for disillusion and assassination.

I agree with your other points. Including I'm glad it's over too. But beware of prequels and spinoffs. And George R(ude) R(ancid) Martin's burst of book pushing now that the show's ending has been filmed and seen and responded to. Martin will now have the opportunity to make a better ending in his precious books and he will claim to be the better story teller which is absolute bull shit because if he was the better story teller I believe that some of the problems that the show was experiencing might not have happened. If he was the better story teller there would be books along with the dragons. Martin can be sitting on the next throne that is burned and melted by a dragon. Or on the next throne that an imp's impossible father has to take a crapper on.  

this is interesting too

well until his comment about Lost.

GRRM posted on Monday that he's going to finish the last two books, and the ending will be somewhat similar and somewhat not similar.

If he writes them, I'll read them. Given how many Spider-men and Batmen (apparently a new one has been signed -- Robert Pattinson) takes we've seen, alt-versions of Westeros seem okay. Or all the Hello Dollys.

If i can get them in paperback super-cheap some day i might go for it. I know how he is, though, and i suspect there never really will be an actual ending. It's just not something he does.

If he gives the copies away for free I'd consider his benevolent gesture. As far as paying for the privilege goes, as Joan Baez sings: I've already paid.

I thought I posted this over here but maybe I only imagine I did or it's another case of a disappearing post. Regardless here it is.

this is pretty good.

Very good analysis of "Why Bran"?  Wish S7 and 8 would have spent time covering even a little of it.  

I don't know. I thought it kind of meandered (as though I had written it). But it brought up some interesting points. The plague idea was interesting. So was the gradual ascendancy of the merchant class.

I wish though that the points about magic were extended more into Bran himself. Is he not the very personification of magic? Seeing all? Is he not an oracle on wheels? With his mind traveling further than he ever could even when ambulatory? Is Bran then the counter-argument that Magic is destructive? Or is Bran magic without a visible conduit? In other words time and space and dimensional things?

I thought before that Bran played something of a political element in the GOT later seasons. He sat with the more temporal Starks in Winterfell. He quoted or presented visuals of Littlefinger to help Sansa prove he should be executed and of course Arya to slice Littlefinger's littlethroat.

Later Bran participated a little in the battle against the Night King in that he basically caused the battle's finale. And he ended up in Kings Landing. True, as other people have said, he didn't intervene to cause needless death and destruction to be avoided. And of course if that even could have happened, the show itself gave Bran zero time even to consider such a possibility. But I don't think the show gave Bran even enough of a story-arc journey to justify the right conclusion that Bran was more of an active player than we automatically perceived.

I thought the whole of the last season was, with a few notable exceptions (like Arya trying to get out of the city under seige, and the dragon hidden under snow when Jon goes to see Dani), pretty awful. Character motivations were absent in either dialogue or visuals all too often. The last episode's conclave of all the leaders was just awful. But, hey, at least there were no rapes (that I can recall, anyway, I may not have been paying full attention) and Davos survived.

I'm pretty sure that there are people who vehemently disagree with your contention about lack of rape.

Wow, I really wasn't paying attention, then! I was referring only to the last episode, and it (the last episode) was so mediocre overalll that I won't be rewatching. I don't think I fell asleep but maybe Tyrion lecturing the gathered power players (what on earth were they listening to him for? Does he have Kilgrave's persuasion power?) droning on...(yawn...)

How was Jon not beheaded immediately, if not by Grey Worm, then by a dozen or so Dothraki, simultaneously? lol.

MrBill60 wrote:

How was Jon not beheaded immediately, if not by Grey Worm, then by a dozen or so Dothraki, simultaneously? lol.    

Maybe we're beating a dead horse here but maybe they planned to torture him --? Or maybe, since Drogon flew off with her body, Jon could blame the poor dragon. I can't remember if there were any additional witnesses. Boy, I really wasn't paying attention.

Pi-O-My wrote:

I thought the whole of the last season was, with a few notable exceptions (like Arya trying to get out of the city under seige, and the dragon hidden under snow when Jon goes to see Dani), pretty awful. Character motivations were absent in either dialogue or visuals all too often. The last episode's conclave of all the leaders was just awful. But, hey, at least there were no rapes (that I can recall, anyway, I may not have been paying full attention) and Davos survived.

His Royal Dorkness wrote:

I'm pretty sure that there are people who vehemently disagree with your contention about lack of rape.

Pi-O-My wrote:

Wow, I really wasn't paying attention, then! I was referring only to the last episode, and it (the last episode) was so mediocre overalll that I won't be rewatching. I don't think I fell asleep but maybe Tyrion lecturing the gathered power players (what on earth were they listening to him for? Does he have Kilgrave's persuasion power?) droning on...(yawn...)

Well, i was trying to be clever, referring to more symbolic rapes like the rape of Jaime's redemption story... so so many character arcs actually. The rape of an interesting story for the Night King. The rape of several seasons of good and mediocre writing by one season of sub-par to terrible writing. The rape of the fan base. That kind of thing.

Because rape jokes are hilarious.

there was also a raping of pacing and time and the process of conversation and discussion. before such things as drive and motivation and ambition and their outcomes good or bad were actually explored. suddenly we have the time travel of heroes from way in the south to way in the north without one snapshot of what would have been an interesting boatride or overland journey. we have the boring greyjoy fleet popping out of the screen boundary as though someone whistled for their dogs. we have daenerys withering away with only the most oblique reference to the possibility of her being poisoned or refusing to eat and therefore thwarting the poisoning. but what was even sadder here was the brief exchange between Varys and his protegee where a series of such meetings would have added chronologically and thematically to Daenerys' gradual downfall from a queen full of confidence (and fire) to a queen weakened by misery and starvation or poisoning. and anything with bran was such a wasted opportunity to get into the mind of a nascent three-eyed raven. basically it was all of mess because the wrong writers took over the storytelling. the solution: quit giving epic assignments to self-serving assholes.