A Museum in Canton, Ohio

This year's enshrinements will be as follows:

Champ Bailey, CB: For several years, this guy was the undisputed best at his position. I believe the term "shutdown corner" was coined because of him. There may have been some better CBs that have come along after him, but when he was at his peak he was the best CB of all time. I could probably write a whole page about his abilities. Definitely a worthy inductee.

Pat Bowlen Broncos owner 1999 - 6/13/2019 (deceased): It's sad a sad loss. He took over a team that had just won a Superbowl and was wise enough to stay out of the way of letting them win another right away. He also supposedly played a key role in Bringing Payton Manning into the fold, which was key to the '16 championship. I'm rarely clear on most cases of owners getting in; he seems worthy enough, i guess.

Gil Brandt, scout in the 50s, VP of player development in Dallas '60 - '88: I've never heard of him, but i'm pretty sure that that's part of the point. I have no problem with the idea of enshrinement for guys who worked behind the scenes who were supposedly game-changers. Just because he wasn't famous in a strictly conventional sense doesn't mean he doesn't belong enshrined, IMO.

Tony Gonzalez, TE: Definitely a great addition. Was the very best in the league at his position for quite a while.

Ty Law, CB: I'm not necessarily convinced that Law was the best at his position for a long period of time, but i do think that when he played he was one of the best CBs of all time as well as being an elite-level defender for a long time. Definitely worthy of induction IMO.

Kevin Mawae, G/C: (7 season blocking for Curtis Martin on 1k yd seasons). This warms the cockles of my heart. Kevin Mawae was a phenomenal athlete who made 8 Pro Bowls in 16 years, including the last two years he played (at ages 37 & 38!!!), at one of the most physically grueling positions in the game. He also had 8 career fumbles, 7 career fumble recoveries, and 6 career false starts. One of the greatest OLs of all time, greatest Centers of all time

Ed Reed, S: One of the greatest defenders of all time, and one of the guys who put a SuperBowl ring on Trent Dilfer's hand. I could gush for pages about his abilities and accolades. Well chosen.

Johnny Robertson, RB, S, Flanker: This is the Veteran's Committee's selection. I don't recognize the name personally, but those guys never get it wrong.

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Does anybody want to offer any thoughts on this year's class? I haven't done any research at all into who's eligible and getting stiffed, but i'd like to know.

why is it called the Pro Football Hall Of Fame when it only has NFL plarers in it?

Because it's owned by the NFL and/or its operatives. It's a waste of time to visit. IMO.

Del:

In a very technical sense, that's not true. Warren Moon played in the CFL.

But you're right nevertheless, and imo it's unfair.

Both baseball and football have major problems with their halls of fame. The basketball hall of fame will start running into some of the same problems within the next decade if it hasn't already started. I'm unfamiliar with the ice hockey hall. Is it better? I can't imagine that it's really all that much better, as ice hockey's been a big international game for several decades now.

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BA, i won't visit the NFL's nor MLB's, at least not as they're currently constituted. I haven't really considered visiting basketball's, i'd need to do some research first.

I think there is a few players in that played in both leagues. It should be called the NFL hall of Fame not Pro Football
The all time leading scorer in "PRO FOOTBALL" is Lui Passaglia of the CFL with 3991 points in 25 seasons not including Playoffshe bookended all thosekicking points with 2 touchdowns

and PRO FOOTBALL's all time passing yards leader is Anthony Calvillo with 79,816 yds and he is one of only seven Pro QB's to complete over 400 touchdown passes

also the Hockey hall of fame is called the NHL Hall of Fame

At least the museum in Cooperstown calls itself the National Baseball Hall of Fame, which imo makes it clear that players who played long successful careers in other countries won't likely be enshrined, though there are 3 guys wearing Expos hats and 9 guys in Blue Jays hats.

James Naismith, widely considered the "inventor" of basketball, was a Canadian citizen. The Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame doesn't cover collegiate excellence, as collegiate basketball has its own Hall of Fame. Naismith Memorial does include the WNBA as well as the NBA, and while it includes NBA players who played on at least two Canadian teams, and many foreign-born players (and many many more to come), it doesn't include foreign leagues. Not including foreign leagues might be somewhat justifiable when it comes to the men's game, but it is not in terms of the women's game. Whether or not the NBA brings the best in the world is highly questionable at this point, but there is NO argument that the WNBA brings the best in the world - they unquestionably do NOT. There are basketball pro leagues all over the world, the sport is almost as ubiquitous as baseball.

The baseball Hall of Fame makes a slightly more credible argument for representing the best players worldwide in the modern era, and there has been a concerted effort to recognize some of the best players from the Negro leagues, but Cooperstown's memorial has problems from nearly every era of Baseball's existence. From segregation to steroids to Japanese pro leagues to a thrown World Series and a gambling addicted hit king, that Hall as an institution has more issues than The Spectator.

By comparison, the NFL's Hall in Canton overstating itself by claiming to be the "Professional Football Hall of Fame" seems mild, but it is still wrong.

Just out of curiosity, Del, are there any major differences in how the game itself is played between the CFL and the NFL?

a few

the field is a 110 yrds by 65 yrds
end zone is 20 yrds deep
goal posts at the front of the end zone
12 players on the field
3 downs instead of 4
the defense lines up 1 yard from the line of scrimage

there is some scoring and time differences

The CFL uses yards? Not metres?

Canadian football has been around for over 100 years
we switched to the Metric system starting in the 70's

the 107th Grey Cup is in Calgary on Nov 24th

Did you know that American football switched from 3 downs to 4 in 1912

I didn't know that. It was mostly just a collegiate sport in the US around then, though if i recall correctly, that's about the time the first semi-pro/pro leagues were forming, and the NFL itself formed in 1920.

in the 1870's Harvard and McGill played some intercollegiate "football" games Harvards field was smaller than McGills hence you now play on a smaller field than us

one other difference is NFL players make big bucks and CFL players have to get off season jobs

"American-Style" Football has changed a lot over the last 140 years or so.

There were times that "pro" athletes in any given sport have had to have other jobs, and there are still lots of minor league baseball players who play in winter leagues in other countries to make ends meet.

Which brings into question what constitutes a professional athlete. If a league doesn't pay their players a living wage, is it really a professional league?

"American" football was a development from rugby football which was a development from association football, which only got that name when the Football Association was formed in 1880. Before that it was just called "football", and rugby football was just called "football", even though they played it with a ball which was oval so that it was easier to carry and harder to kick.

up until the NFL signed mega buck TV contracts salaries in both leagues were closer in $$$

TBC wrote:

"American" football was a development from rugby football which was a development from association football, which only got that name when the Football Association was formed in 1880. Before that it was just called "football", and rugby football was just called "football", even though they played it with a ball which was oval so that it was easier to carry and harder to kick.

Yeah, "football" is more like an umbrella term in my opinion, which covers a wide range of different kinds of team sports who all have certain elements in common: they're all played with a ball; each team theoretically controls roughly half of a rectangular field; points are scored by advancing the ball into particular parts of the opponent's side of the field (or in some cases simply gaining possession of the ball in the opponent's zone of theoretical control); sticks are not allowed; and every version has at least some plays where kicking the ball is at least okay.

ExpletiveDeleted wrote:

up until the NFL signed mega buck TV contracts salaries in both leagues were closer in $$$

It seems pretty widely assumed that the NFL gets the best players of its game unless they disgrace themselves, and often even then, especially if they play for Kansas City. If i remember correctly, the first big tv contracts for the NFL started within the first decade of the Superbowl era, so during the 70's, although i'm pretty sure that the strike of '85 had a lot to do with increasing player salaries and signing bonuses too.

Del, the guys whose names you posted upthread, the CFL stars with the gaudy stats... When did they play? Not that a pro kicker with that many points over that many years doesn't deserve enshrinement regardless, really i'm just curious and lazy.

Lui Passaglia played from 76 to 2000 all with the BC Lions

Anthony Calvillo played from 94 to 2013 starting with the Las Vegas Posse , Hamilton Ti Cats and the Montreal Alouettes

The Albany Empire are facing the Philadelphia Soul (who last i knew were owned by Jon Bon Jovi) in Arena Bowl 32 this coming Sunday. The Empire is Albany's second Arena League Franchise, as the Firebirds moved to greener pastures long ago. The Firebirds played in several Arena Bowls but were never able to bring home the hardware, and iirc never had home field advantage. The game will be in Albany at the Times Union Center.

The pay levels for Arena League and CFL are pretty similar.

the CFL salary cap last year was 5.2 million

the BC Lions QB this year makes $725,000 per on a 4year contract

Quora listed the CFL franchise salary cap as $4.2M for the 2019 season.

For some reason, i believe you over them.

Also, it turns out that the second iteration of the Firebirds won the Arena Bowl in 1999, and the game was held in Albany.

And Ron "Jaws" Jaworski now owns The Soul. <- that sentence just felt VERY weird to type.

The Albany Empire were able to bring home the hardware, for those of you who've been refreshing this thread unceasingly, waiting with bated breath to find out. So Albany has two Arenabowl championships, with different franchises and separated by exactly 20 years.

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Anyway, back to the museum in Canton that prompted the genesis of this thread:

Not too long ago, i overheard a couple of people at my job discussing the "injustice" of the fact that Mike Vick won't be inducted this coming August (or whenever induction ceremonies are held for this year's class). Personally, i think Vick was an outstanding talent in his era. I don't and never have considered myself a fan of the man, i respected his athletic abilities but don't think he's HoF material. I don't know if Canton shares Cooperstown's lip service to considering an athlete's character; frankly i hope not, but if they do, i don't think they should hold Vick's dog fighting against him in that regard. I am NOT one of those people who said anything resembling, "They're just dogs, we're talking about a MAN's life and livelihood here." I revile that sentiment, and i'm glad that Vick had to do time in prison for his crimes. With that said, i also believe that Vick eventually realized the gravity of his crimes and i think that whether or not he's genuinely rehabilitated, he did enough for posterity that those crimes should NOT against his professional career more than the fact he wasn't in the NFL at all for two full seasons, and after that he had a rehab season as an RB in Philly where he threw 13 passes, and those "lost" seasons were when he was in his late 20's, which are usually peak years for mobile and physically active quarterbacks. Furthermore IMO no statistical gymnastics should be attempted to project what his numbers could have been those years, nor how much better his game afterward might have been if he hadn't been away for so long. Could he have had a Hall of Fame career if he hadn't been running an underground illegal dog fighting ring in the US? Maybe. He'd probably have at least a stronger case, but maybe not - weird injuries end careers out of nowhere all the time.


I just don't think his career was a Hall of Fame Career:

He made the Pro Bowl four times but at no point was he the best player at his position, even if we compile his passing and rushing stats. His only award of note is the Comeback Player Of The Year Award. He was never even a finalist for an MVP or PoY, he was never a first team All-Pro selection. He is the all-time NFL leader in yards/rushing attempt, which is impressive but by itself it's not much of a career accolade. He played parts in 11 seasons, but had at least 10 starts at QB in only 7 of his 11 seasons.

profootball-reference.com lists his PFR HoF Monitor at 44.85, so they don't think think it's completely impossible (they say that a score over 40 makes it possible, although they say that anybody with a score of less than 60 who is actually in was a Veteran's Committe selection) It's possible for the score to change minutely during his eligibility period because it takes appearances on previous ballots into account, though that stat is weighted very lightly. The average score for a QB who's already enshrined is 103.46

Mike Vick's profootball-record.com statistical page:  https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/V/VickMi00.htm
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This year's inductees (drum roll please) are: RB Edgerrin "The Edge" James; WR Isaac Bruce; S Troy Polamalu; S Steve Atwater, and OG Steve Hutchison. Polumalu is being inducted in his first year of eligibility, a well-deserved special accolade. Atwater is going in in his 16th year; it says something special about a guy if he collects enough ballots each year to remain eligible and then finally makes it. This was Hutchinson's third year of eligibility. James and Bruce were both in their 6 years of eligibility.

Vick was supposed to "redefine" the quarterback position. He didn't. As least not in a good way. Mark Brunell was a better mobile QB. His first college appearance was in Washington's blowout win over Florida in the Holiday Bowl in San Diego, he came on late in the 3rd quarter as the third string QB, and wound up with more rushing yards than the starting TB for the Gators. That dude is in some museum in Ohio. Nobody is ever mentioning Mark Brunell for selection, for some odd reason. He was a starter for 11 seasons and then a veteran back-up for 7 more. He was the face of the expansion Jags team which exceeded expectations before being traded to the perennially underachieving Redskins.

Wait. I know why nobody is mentioning him. It's because his career numbers don't really stand out. And neither, for that matter, do Michael Vick's.

Brunell actually has a stronger case for induction. Brunell had 5 seasons with more than 8 wins, which is actually 5 times as many as Vick. Brunell actually appears, albeit lowly, on lists like "Approximate Value (career) and Approximate Value Weighted (career), that Vick doesn't. Mark has more career comebacks, a higher career passing rating (i guess that was a gimme though). He made it to one fewer Probowl and has the same number of First Team All-NFL picks, but he has a Championship ring - granted, he was holding a clipboard and cheering for Drew Brees in his last season wearing cleats, but i for one am DAMNED glad the Saints had a Man with Heart like Mark Brunell holding that clipboard over a narcissistic chump like Vick.

Some may say that Brunell lucked out to be holding that clipboard. Probably some of those same would say that fortune favors the bold. But on that particular SB Sunday, i've liked to think that Fortune smiled on he who had Heart.

As was recently mentioned in these parts, 1999 was an odd year. Coughlin and Brunell went 14-2 in the regular season, both of those losses to the divisional rival Titans, who they then lost to again in the AFC Championship game. Some say that Jax coulda beaten the Greatest Show on Turf, but we'll never know. Nevertheless it's nice to know that both Coughlin and Brunell got at least a ring each in the long run.

The Canton Hall of Fame festivities have been cancelled. At least all of the events that would draw lots of people together. Including enshrinement week. But does that mean 2020 folks will not even be added to the Hall of Fame this year? I looked for this info here and there but couldn't find it. I would think the enshrinees' names would be added to the HOF this year, but any gathering with them would just be postponed until next year. But as I said nothing I've found says specifically that. If even the names being added is postponed until next year, will there be any 2021 names at all? I think there should be. Just double the guests of honor at two tables: 2021 and the postponed 2020. However I even wonder if next year will happen. At least in the way that has happened years before.

Part of me I must admit is a little relieved because I hate the HOF festivities---at least the loud outdoor traffic-snarling ones. I'm talking about you parade. I always try to be out of town. But this summer? I think out of town is my backyard.

If i recall correctly, there is really only a tentative plan that could be altered or scrapped by the Hall if they feel it needs alteration or is unworkable. That plan is to have separate ceremonies for the class of 2020 one or two weeks before the ceremonies for the class of 2021.

yes. that makes sense. thank you.

Found this info:

https://www.nfl.com/news/2020-hall-of-fame-game-cancelled-enshrinement-postponed

that was the clarity I was looking for earlier.

Great link! Thanks DBL!!!

ExpletiveDeleted wrote:

the CFL salary cap last year was 5.2 million

the BC Lions QB this year makes $725,000 per on a 4year contract

damn, that's signing bonus for a middle of the road JAG player in the NFL

he made squat this year the season was cancelled its a gate driven league besides half the players cant cross the border

ExpletiveDeleted wrote:

I think there is a few players in that played in both leagues. It should be called the NFL hall of Fame not Pro Football
The all time leading scorer in "PRO FOOTBALL" is Lui Passaglia of the CFL with 3991 points in 25 seasons not including Playoffshe bookended all thosekicking points with 2 touchdowns

and PRO FOOTBALL's all time passing yards leader is Anthony Calvillo with 79,816 yds and he is one of only seven Pro QB's to complete over 400 touchdown passes

also the Hockey hall of fame is called the NHL Hall of Fame

Drew Brees is catching up quickly to that all-time passing yards record. He's at 79,034 with 10 games left to play this year. If he doesn't get hurt (which is always a big if, especially for an old QB) he'll be #1 by the end of the year.

Drew also has 558 passing TDs right now, 1 less than Tom Brady, who has the most all time.

*raise yer hand if you can literally walk to the HoF within 20 mins*