Westworld

well I am caught up on all 'my' shows, so I decided to binge Westworld. I hear good things, and fondly remember the movie.

BTW, the Terror (AMC) is pretty good, finished it up last night. It starts slow, but get 3 episodes in and it gets good.

I'm still debating on trying Fear the Walking Dead again. I tried the 1st episode and it did NOT grab me. Thoughts?

ok, not digging the classic tracks massaged into the soundtrack, taking me right OUT of it

Zaphod wrote:

well I am caught up on all 'my' shows, so I decided to binge Westworld. I hear good things, and fondly remember the movie.

BTW, the Terror (AMC) is pretty good, finished it up last night. It starts slow, but get 3 episodes in and it gets good.

I'm still debating on trying Fear the Walking Dead again. I tried the 1st episode and it did NOT grab me. Thoughts?

Sorry for the threadjack here but I don't see one for Terror and don't want to start one on a show I may not watch much further. It's gotten moderately interesting but maybe not enough to stick with it.

Actually, a warning on when they eat that beautiful dog would be helpful, so we can skip that episode. Fast forwarding isn't something I'd usually want to do but given the loving detail the first three episodes spent on wounds, surgeries, etc., I think there may be need for massive FFing. Also, we're owned by Bernese Mountain Dogs, and they're distant cousins to Newfies, so that would make it especially nightmare-inducing. (Cannibalism, no big deal. But dogs -- no!)

FearTWD? It's ok, but I'm biased, being a fan of both Cliff Curtis and Kim Dickens. Colman Domingo, too. I think a fair amount of the dislike it generated was because so many people had good ideas for spin offs of the original TWD and this wasn't one of them. I stopped watching it after Season 2, mostly for lack of time. (I stopped watching the original after the second or third episode of the season in which they introduced Negan and he just yakked on and on. JDM brought the charisma and scariness combo but I kept thinking I'd rather be watching him doing The Comedian again, and the rest of it felt too repetitious.)

Ok, I have to take the plunge and sign up for HBO. I loved the first season (bought the blurays).

Got a $5 per month special.. I'm all set for tomorrow's premiere.

Whaaat? I'm paying 15 bucks a month.

We pay close to $200 per month for cable so I'm happy for any break. The $5 is for a year, then I'm sure it's jacked up to $15 or whatever they charge after that. I'm probably going to cancel after the year's up. The only shows I'm interested in are GOT and Westworld.

Yeah I don't have cable. I do my 15 a month to HBO for streaming and 10 a month to Amazon. I trade those for a friend's netflix, and that about covers me.

Wow, that was a great premiere. Maeve is so badass, I just love her. Still trying to figure out the timeline and how far ahead the opening sequence is. Must not be too long. Also some more clues on Westworld's geography, what it is and hopefully more clues on where it might be located.

OMG Floki is in season 2!!!

I spent half the episode trying to figure out where I know the actor from. Then it hit me like a war hammer.

It seems that the military types are “later” than Bernard and Charlotte in the bunker but I’m not sure I’d totally rule out there being more than one Bernard. Then again, I’m the one who said Ford made a roboFord (besides the little boy) in the likelihood that his original self would be killed off. If it helps figuring out the timeline(s), Bernard had a chance to change his clothes, and to get an outfit like that (well-fitting three-piece suit, unlike Charlotte’s cowgirl gear) meant he had the time to go home. Maybe they were hinting at that with the emphasis on Charlotte taking a breather from those boots, which she was sharp enough to steal—from the kid they killed in the barn? Meanwhile, what timeline is the Man In Black wandering around in? And we haven’t seen the chunk of time when Stubbs escaped from the Ghost Nation warriors who appeared to overpower him at the end of Season 1.

Abernathy is an interesting vehicle for the IP Charlotte has to deliver. If he’s still around but she thinks she’s already shipped out the “package” then what failed to ship? I figured at first it had to do with Maeve getting off the train but Charlotte had, for some reason, used Abernathy, and I don’t think he’s had anything to do with Maeve. Abernathy was the one who first whispered that line about “violent delights” which seemed to trigger self-awareness. I’m remembering something about him glitching while he was being used as “the Professor” or “the Senator” or some such in the cannibalism story, and after he was recast as “The Rancher” began glitching there. Maybe that’s related to why Charlotte used him or maybe why he’s intrinsically valuable as what she called (to Bernard) "insurance."

And Bernard has human DNA? At least enough to fool the scary milk-white Drone?

I think Bernard is special enough to fool everyone he worked with including security sensors (not sure if they take dna), but maybe retinal scans and stuff like that.  Ford made sure he could pass for human.  But on the other hand, so does Maeve.  As Felix said the only thing differentiating hosts from humans is the chip in the head.  (I wonder what happened to the Felix and Sylvester duo?  Are they still around or were they caught in the gunfire in S1?)

Did we actually see Ford's decaying corpse during the assault team segments?  That would suggest perhaps weeks have passed and that Bernard apparently drowned the remaining hosts in a new sea, lake, ocean?? would suggest the future.    Are we seeing the ending of S2, or will it be resolved sooner?  I hope it's resolved sooner than later, there are other worlds to explore.. Shogun World and four others.  Looking forward to that.

Charlotte and the tech-smuggling stuff doesn't really interest me but Abernathy is probably "patient-zero" as far as the hosts gaining sentience. What ever they did to download data into him to smuggle out of the park probably crossed some wires that put him on the path to self-awareness and assuming the hosts have some kind of network connection, the virus has spread.   Or was it what Ford introduced, since it was his plan all along to free the hosts?  It's so confusing, but I trust that things will be explained and we're not left sitting in a church with a white light.

I believe Westword is an island near China, owned by China, and possibly leased to Delos. I remember that some of the video conferences Theresa had were to Chinese officials and that the Delos assault (rescue) team was interacting with the Chinese Navy in this episode.

I re-watched the episode and the time between the "event" and Bernard's flashbacks to directly after the slaughter is apparently two weeks based on a comment that Strand (Head of Delos Ops) made about the radio silence. I would be disappointed if this season only focuses on a two week slice of time.

They showed a closeup of a host's face that was drowned under water. It sure looked like Teddy, but I'm not completely certain.

I recently had  free HBO for 3 days via Sling TV and watched the 1st Season and the first episode of Season 2 .   What a mind screw this show is and I mean that in a good way.  When I get confused about something I have to ask my son or look on the internet.    Great show and good casting.  

They showed more penis in Season 1 than I have ever seen on a TV show.  

Zaphod wrote:

well I am caught up on all 'my' shows, so I decided to binge Westworld. I hear good things, and fondly remember the movie.

BTW, the Terror (AMC) is pretty good, finished it up last night. It starts slow, but get 3 episodes in and it gets good.

I'm still debating on trying Fear the Walking Dead again. I tried the 1st episode and it did NOT grab me. Thoughts?

I have Terror waiting for me in my DVR.  I definitely will watch it now that you say it is pretty good.

IMO - FTWD gets better as it goes.

So far, so good, with a couple of reservations. In particular, I’m concerned about the show playing a bit fast and Lost for effect. Do hosts (like the desperadoes Dolores & Co. shoot up in Pariah) need repair after being killed, or was that “death” just programming and the repairs were so they’d look fresh for the guests? And the scene with Arnold and Dolores, and Ford’s voice, seemed to be just before the cocktail party for Logan, but since Dolores (unlike Angela) still had a body like Ava in Ex Machina, how could they have considered pimping  her out to the investor?

Despite that, it's all still intriguing and puzzling mostly in a good way. I'm wondering if the bigwigs like (sick) James Delos wanted to use Ford's research to upload themselves into undying artificial bodies, or if they want to be artificial to relaunch and do better a second time around.

Pi-O-My wrote:

So far, so good, with a couple of reservations. In particular, I’m concerned about the show playing a bit fast and Lost for effect. Do hosts (like the desperadoes Dolores & Co. shoot up in Pariah) need repair after being killed, or was that “death” just programming and the repairs were so they’d look fresh for the guests? And the scene with Arnold and Dolores, and Ford’s voice, seemed to be just before the cocktail party for Logan, but since Dolores (unlike Angela) still had a body like Ava in Ex Machina, how could they have considered pimping  her out to the investor?

Despite that, it's all still intriguing and puzzling mostly in a good way. I'm wondering if the bigwigs like (sick) James Delos wanted to use Ford's research to upload themselves into undying artificial bodies, or if they want to be artificial to relaunch and do better a second time around.

I have a lot of questions about the evolution of the Hosts, as well.  Ford used to talk to "Old Bill" who sort of behaved like a Disneyland animatronics dummy with jerky movements.  Maybe he was a prototype who never made it to the park.  We also had a shout out to Yul Brenner's Gunslinger in the original film, I guess he was a prototype as well, although we never saw him in action.  Then we come to the pre-park opening sales pitch with Angela? and a bunch of hosts.   I assume they were all Host 1.0's with the inner robotic skeletons,  and then finally the current 2.0 builds with the 3D printing type construction. I'm surprised that the 1.0's were as evolved as the 2.0's to the point that Logan couldn't tell humans from Hosts.  Maybe there's really no difference in the "look and feel" of the hosts and that the 3D printing is just a cheaper way to build them? I'd like to know a little more about the changes to the Hosts over time.

As far as repairing Hosts, Delores has the "tech guy" who can revive and repair them to a certain point,  I guess not cosmetically but more of a patch up job, as evidenced by the messed up face of  the host that Delores had revived and returned to the desperadoes.   I'm surprised that "tech guy" survived that shootout.

William just can't let go of Delores and we see a lot of the current "man in black" taking shape in the younger version. Now that's an interesting evolution or de-evolution.

I guess Arnold had a hard time letting go of Delores as well, and he's right, she wasn't ready,  as she loops back into her programmed response to the city.

It was great seeing Giancarlo Esposito for a few minutes in this episode.. such a wonderfully unique voice.

So we get to see a new park world at the beginning of the episode, "The Raj"? which appears to be set in British Colonial India circa 1930's or '40's.  Elegant parties and big game hunting with elephants as the main transportation.   We're also introduced to a new female character.  She definitely prefers humans rather than Hosts for her bed mates,  as evidenced by her test of shooting her perspectives to make sure they're human, lol.  She seems to be an important character and I would venture a guess she's related to one of the big wigs, possibly William or Ford.  She survives a Tiger attack which is probably the same dead tiger that was seen in the first episode.

"Tech guy" from the last episode is no where to be seen in this episode so he probably didn't make it and Delores has no qualms about executing humans. She definitely has a ruthless streak on her way to "dominating the real world".  Teddy is having second thoughts about her ruthlessness which doesn't bode well for his survival.    Delores is reunited with Bernard and Peter Abernathy who are both seriously malfunctioning.  Peter is switching through different roles and briefly recognizes Delores as his daughter then flips to another role and forgets.  She enlists Bernard's help to try to fix him.  Bernard is in bad shape as well but finds that Peter's problem is due to the data dump that Hale performed.  Hale and the security units are able to extract Abernathy from Delores' encampment after a major battle.
 
We also follow Maeve and company who are reunited with Felix and Sylvester and the Dragon Lady in the underground corridors.  Wonder what that bundle is that Sylvester is carrying around?  Lee Sizemore is still with them and is annoying as usual.  I don't understand why he is surprised that Maeve and Hector are off their programmed loops and operating independently from his storylines?  What a bonehead, he's been with Maeve since the "Event" and hasn't notice she and Hector are operating independently?  They eventually make it out of the corridors to the Park and are apparently close to the old homestead where her daughter supposedly is.  On the way, they come across a campfire which is  manned by Samurai, as one Katana-wielding Samurai attacks the group. We also see that the woman from "The Raj" has survived the Tiger attack and made it to shore only to be confronted by Sioux warriors. We'll have to wait until the next episode to see the resolution of these storylines.

I assume there are still multiple timelines being shown and trying to keep them straight is confusing and becoming a chore.

Westworld takes it's share of creative liberties but the production value and story are entertaining enough to compensate for it. Very enjoyable program.

Many programs about the singularity in the last few years. This one and Humans are at the top of the list.

I was basing "The Raj" time frame on the Luger that the woman used, I thought they weren't in service until the 30's, but the Luger has been in service since the turn of the century, 1908, so the time frame may be as early as the teens or '20's but I'm not too familiar with jungle-wear, lol.

The Raj woman seemed so bored, and seemed familiar with how the parks work, so I suspect she wasn’t paying for her  expensive adventure. I wonder if her test for knowing the humanity of a possible paramour was out of scruples or from disdain for a man without free will. In either case, her insistence momentarily overruled the programming of her (presumably human) biology. Also, the bullet test must have been day of the big corporate shindig over in Westworld, since it worked properly, and everything had changed by the next day. I thought it was interesting that the tiger seemed to have gotten the memo, since I assume that normally s/he wouldn’t have actually attacked a guest.

Did we ever see what happened to “Tech guy” after the resurrection scene? Dolores might have had more luck with fixing her broken father if she hadn’t been so quick to ditch him, if that's what happened to him.  Abernathy  was already switching randomly between roles before they stuck him in cold storage but he seems worse now that he’s loaded up with all Charlotte’s data. Poor Teddy’s very conflicted, given that his two prime directives are to protect Dolores and to hunt down Wyatt. He was right there when she identified herself as Wyatt to the fort’s commander, so it’s not altogether surprising that he disobeyed her order to shoot the surviving soldiers. And newly re-armed Armistice is also committed to killing Wyatt, so it should be fun to see how she interacts with the new Dolores.

Resolution to storylines in our next episode – not likely! ;)

"Re-armed" Armistice, nice. I wonder if that was what Sylvester and Felix were up to, replacing her arm? Still wonder what Sylvester is carrying around, an arm upgrade? Maybe there's still work to be done.

Mr. Bill, it seems to me that Armistice’s arm is already as advanced as its likely to get. I was thinking the wrappings contain some kind of weaponry, but I’m not sure why Sylvester would then be trusted to carry it. Maybe it’s some tool to help them get out of the park once they’ve found Maeve’s daughter. (I can’t remember what they had to do to remove Maeve’s exploding spine device. And I don’t remember any physical work being done on Abernathy when he was being loaded with data, to keep him in one piece.) So it’s still a mystery to me.

I wonder if Ford’s experiments with creating an alterna-Ford have been more successful than Delos Corp’s attempts to resurrect human individuals like James Delos. If not, then “the first one” (or whatever the Lakota woman called their leader – the actual decision-maker, not the one played by Zahn McClarnon), who I strongly suspect will be played by Anthony Hopkins, may only have a few weeks before he reaches his “cognitive plateau.”

Ah a family reunion with William/MIB and daughter, Grace - the mystery woman from the Raj.  This should be interesting. It doesn't appear that her mother's death has soured her on the park.  She's apparently well known to the employees and has been a regular for a while. I wonder if in earlier days they had family outings, lol.  So what is she there for, revenge, closure? Apparently William /MIB didn't know that she was at the park - tight family there.  This should be interesting.


Another mystery woman reappears in the form of Elsie, the tech and colleague of Bernard.  Bernard finds her in a cave that he apparently left her in,  chained with a couple weeks supply of granola bars.  I have to say, this reunion was pretty lame and what was the point of keeping her alive?  What happens when the supply runs out or water?   She was none too pleased about it.  I can't imagine that Ford would have spared her, so perhaps Bernard overrode his own programming and kept her alive for the off chance that someone would find her?   The only point to their reunion that I can see is that Bernard was seriously malfunctioning and the cave contains a secret entrance to a secret lab that amazingly had the cortical fluid that Bernard needs to survive.   Any way this was an almost cringeworthy deux ex machina.  The secret lab is important to the plot, but Elsie, not so much.

So we come to the big reveal, that housed in the secret lab is the 149th and final build of James Delos with the failed promise of Life Extension which was William's big selling point to get Delos to invest in the park.  All 149 attempts were failures and resulted in the termination of the host.   We find out in a final visit from William after years of supervising Delos' progress that apparently Jame's personality is not compatible with Host technology, so every attempt at downloading his consciousness into a host body resulted in rejection.  Would a more compatible personality be successful?  Has it been done before?  Is this related in any way to the data gathering and smuggling operation in the lab?

No sign of Delores or Maeve in this episode, it mostly involved James and young William , Bernard, and current MIB. MIB is with his tag-a-long revisiting the old town, El Muerto, where MIB ruthlessly killed tag-a-long's wife to make a point.  This time around, MIB develops a heart and saves her.  Yep, the game is a maze and MIB needs to go back to go forward. Perhaps at the end of the game, MIB / William will actually become human again and then die.

MrBill60 wrote:

Would a more compatible personality be successful?

Me! Me!

I'm gonna watch the season premier of Humans tonight, as research on how to act more human.

On second though, I don't know if "becoming human" is a worthy goal in Westworld since most of the humans seem deplorable.

Not impressed with the recent ep. Weakest one of the series imho.

Wow, we get to visit Shogun world complete with Mt. Fuji in the background.  I wonder how they managed that?  Did they terraform a full scale mountain, is it a giant backdrop, or perhaps false perspective like the Matterhorn in Disneyland?   I wonder how the sushi is in 17th century Japan?

It was good seeing Hiroyuki Sanada from Lost and The Last Samura, he's really got the Katana-wielding thing down. I found it hilarious that Sizemore blueprinted Westworld onto Shogun World with basically the same characters and story arcs. Heck, you try writing 300 stories in two weeks,lol.   I found Shogun World interesting but think it would appeal to a very specific client, mostly Japanese who know how to use a bow or a sword. If you're not Samurai, you're dirt.

Sylvester to Felix .."Can't you talk to them?"
- "I'm from Hong Kong asshole!".

Hey, Mr. Bill, the "tech guy" is still around! I guess diagnosing Abernathy was beyond his skills. Or Dolores trusted Bernard to work on her father but not a Delos staff person, maybe. It's interesting that Charlotte didn't delete his Donne and Shakespeare spouting from "The Professor" or his memories about "blue tongue" from "The Rancher."

The episode mostly felt sluggish for me with all the redundant Dolores stuff. Was she feeling nostalgic or was she testing Teddy’s emotional levels? Maybe she’s glitching between roles herself, Dolores at times and then over to Wyatt. I wonder if she’s thinking that reprogramming Teddy will wipe out her own Dolores tendencies.

Sizemore’s info-dumping is more tolerable than it otherwise would be just because he’s such a dolt that he’s entertaining. I wonder if he was the mind behind Akane’s un-Japanese dance or if she was off script. (I think her freeform performance would have tipped off the Shogun something wasn’t right. Then again, he did have a leaky ear so he’s not up to par.)

Now that we know that all the hosts have multi-lingual capabilities, I wonder if they also all have Maeve’s newly discovered ability to control other hosts and just don’t know it, yet. Or maybe Maeve is tuned in to the “host mesh network” in a way the others can’t be because of Sylvester and Felix increasing her ability levels (back when the cat duo removed the explosive from her spine, something that seems to have been forgotten regarding Abernathy.) IIRC, Bernard needed a “hard” connection to access the network (when he and Charlotte needed to locate Abernathy), which Maeve doesn’t need. I wonder if her “voice” is related to the interior voices of the Bicameral Mind.

I agree, the Delores part was nothing new and she's sort of one-note in her quest.  I knew something bad was in store for Teddy.  I couldn't really see what was on that fly-infested table and I wasn't sure whether Teddy is going to be re-programmed or burned at the stake.  Whatever it is, it's not pleasant.

I wonder what the significance of the tech pulling out the cores of hosts and saying the programming has been wiped and they're virgins right out of the factory.  Did Ford wipe them?  How are they functioning without any programming? Maybe they're functioning in Wi-Fi land or the "Cloud".

Where does Delores think the train is going to take her, out of the park? And what about those spinal charges, she's in for a surprise unless they've been deactivated by some higher power.

Throughout the series I've oft wondered why the hosts can't communicate wirelessly. Since diagnostics and repair can be done this way, why not communication? Maybe one of you techies can help along my thinking about that.

I love this show! I've got a lot of thoughts, questions and theories but I'm too tired to write them down right now -- especially when the newest episode is about to begin.

S02E06 "Phase Space"

I don't have any predictions for tonight but I do want to mention a few things that bother me.

Bernard stole one of those "control units" (looked like a red sphere) and mentioned that Ford had him do it. I believe this was prior to the big night when Dolores/Wyatt shoots Ford. If you recall, when Ford had Bernard kill his former lover by bashing her head into the wall, there was a host being created in that underground lab. I think Bernard said it should be ready in a couple of days.

So, was the control unit for that host and who did it ultimately become? The possibilities are deliciously inviting. Got to go now.

Any thoughts on that opening scene between Dolores and Bernard?  

It appears that Dolores is having Bernard role-play Arnold (Bernard -- either knowingly or perhaps not).    It also seems to me she's replaying the final session between herself and Arnold 30 odd years ago, when Arnold appeared to struggle with the decision to end himself or the hosts.  Also, I'm perplexed as to when this could have taken place.  (Dolores mentions they've done this many times and she appears to be in control.  That would suggest, it takes place after the big event when Ford is shot.  But maybe not -- maybe the sessions took place throughout the years at Ford's direction so he could better understand what Arnold was thinking?)

Dolores and Teddy

Oh Dolores -- be careful what you wish for.  

Teddy walks along the littered main street in Sweetwater and kneels down by that milkcan -- totally ignoring it -- and retrieves an unspent bullet.  I knew then that Teddy -- the shining knight we witnessed -- was gone.  A pox on Dolores for "fixing" Teddy!

Shortly after retrieving the bullet, Teddy enters the saloon and suggests they get going.  Dolores runs her hands over his face and arms, looks at him and fails to see the man she wanted to see.  I wonder if that was a moment of regret for her?  At any rate, Teddy knows he's a changed man and I don't think he's too thrilled about those changes but he appears cold and detached -- almost fatalistic.

Right after that, they're at the train station, and Dolores is trying to get information on Peter Abernathy's whereabouts at the Mesa from two captured techs.  The guys are frightened and the one claims he has no idea where Hale has stashed Abernathy.  Teddy, wasting no time, shoots and kills the guy, then boards the train telling Dolores, they'll find him.  I do believe Dolores was shocked at Teddy's behavior.  

Speaking of Peter Abernathy -- How absolutely brutal was that -- "bolting" him to the gurney?   I sincerely hope bitch Hale gets her due in a most painful manner.  I've had enough of her.

Back to Teddy -- So, did Dolores completely "fix" him?  When they abandon the train bound for the Mesa, Teddy stops and gives the tech an empty gun and the unspent bullet he found in Sweetwater.  He tells the guy that this act is the "last of his mercy" and to use it quickly.  This doesn't seem like the act of a cold-hearted killer and yet I don't get a sense of Teddy being able to be a better man than he appears to be.  Thoughts?

I think Delores created a monster and she'll miss the kind-hearted Teddy.  It looks like she can reprogram him to be her "dream guy" if she wanted to.

I'm not sure about that Bernard-Delores sit down.  Bernard had his regular talks with Delores before the "incident", and I think this was a flash back and reveal that Delores was actually in charge and testing Bernard, of what the test was about, I have no idea.  

I expected more from the MIB and daughter scene and what a total asshole MIB was for ditching her.  Doesn't he have even a modicum of protectiveness toward her?  

Wasn't a "no man's land" referenced in season 1?  I believe the natives in that area routinely put their victims' heads on spikes as a warning, so Tech guy will be stranded in that area and perhaps a bullet to the head is a better fate than what's in store for him with the tribe.  I guess from one perspective giving tech guy a gun is an act of mercy compared to the other outcome.    Hopefully Tech guy knows of an access elevator to the underground facility and can escape.

Not sure what's up with the explosion in the tunnel as the train barrels through.  

There were a lot of pools of water in Shogun World and a lot of opportunities to wash up,  I kept wanting Maeve and company to take a few minutes to do so.

Ok, so Maeve was re-purposed for some reason - you'd think they'd do the same with the daughter.

I'm kind of pissed that they showed the "end-game" early on with most of the hosts drowned, but that could also be a false memory.  I hope that is the case.

MrBill60 wrote:

I'm not sure about that Bernard-Delores sit down.  Bernard had his regular talks with Delores before the "incident", and I think this was a flash back and reveal that Delores was actually in charge and testing Bernard, of what the test was about, I have no idea.

I think you are right about it being a flash back, but I don't think she was testing Bernard.  I think she was testing an Arnold replica.  

I thought about your post and went back to rewatch that scene while asking myself under what condition would Ford put Dolores in charge of testing Bernard. I don't think Ford would but I can now see him having Arnold's dearest host interact with an Arnold replica.  When asked what the test was about, Dolores replied, "fidelity".  We think of "fidelity" as being loyal or faithful to someone or some ideal, but it can also mean, "the degree of exactness with which something is copied or reproduced".  I think back then that Ford was trying to recreate Arnold not some host named Bernard who looked like Arnold and had some of his memories (like wife and death of son).   (There's also the possibility that Arnold himself created a replica and was using Dolores to test its "fidelity".)

So, now I'm wondering all those little sessions Dolores and Arnold had in season one -- was it Arnold or host Arnold? 

MrBill60 wrote:

Wasn't a "no man's land" referenced in season 1?  I believe the natives in that area routinely put their victims' heads on spikes as a warning, so Tech guy will be stranded in that area and perhaps a bullet to the head is a better fate than what's in store for him with the tribe.  I guess from one perspective giving tech guy a gun is an act of mercy compared to the other outcome.    Hopefully Tech guy knows of an access elevator to the underground facility and can escape.

Not sure what's up with the explosion in the tunnel as the train barrels through.

I read that scene as Dolores and Teddy leaving the tech in the train which they had loaded with explosives and bound for the Mesa station and set to explode after entering the tunnel entrance.  This plays out as the people at the Mesa watch the train on the newly restored map and the resulting explosion that even Elsie and Bernard felt on a different Mesa level.

So, Teddy giving the tech guy the gun was letting him kill himself with a bullet rather than die in the explosion.

MrBill60 wrote:

I expected more from the MIB and daughter scene and what a total asshole MIB was for ditching her.  Doesn't he have even a modicum of protectiveness toward her?

I don't think MIB believes Emily is his daughter.  He thinks she's a host and Ford is using her to get to him.  MIB even addresses her as Ford.   So, while she thinks she convinces him and they connect over the campfire, I don't think MIB buys into it at all.

Emily certainly is on my list of the human host Ford created (and had Bernard steal the control unit for).

My list of candidates so far:

• Ford himself
  Elsie
  Emily
  

Oh hi sandi,  great to see you here!   I got the train sequence wrong for some reason. Between a bullet to the head and dying in the explosion, I think it's probably an even deal for Tech Guy.

The whole human / host hybrid thing is interesting.  William / MIB spent several decades trying to test the James Delos hybrid for "fidelity", the same thing Delores was testing the Arnold / Bernard hybrid for.  It doesn't appear that anyone knows about Bernard's true nature except Ford and now Elsie, so this was done under the Delos Corp's radar.  I'm sure this relates to the data dumping that Hale is doing.  Life Extension is big business and I guess it has something to do with that and the power play between Ford and Delos Corp and perhaps Ford has the missing "ingredient".  Wonder how many other human/host hybrids were created (including himself) as you noted.  

Interesting theory that Grace (MIB's daughter) is a human/host hybrid.  I know that MIB had his suspicions, but I thought that little heart to heart changed his mind.  Too bad MIB doesn't have a cell phone stashed away somewhere to confirm his daughter's whereabouts.  If she is a human/host hybrid, perhaps Ford put her at the  Raj to isolate her from the  mayhem that would ensue in Westworld. The Raj had lethal elements, but not to the extent as Westworld. Once the "incident" happened, her pre-programmed mission to connect with her father began.  Not sure what the point of deviating him from "the maze" is.  What does Ford care or what is Ford hiding? Kind of weird.  

Also this would suggest that MIB is aware of other successful Human-host hybrids since his daughter as a host was his first suspicion.  That brings up another question but I don't know how important it is.  Is MIB aware of Bernard's true nature?   It would be interesting to see  a timeline of Arnold's death and Bernard's creation,  I believe Bernard happened before James Delos and William's tenure as CEO's and Bernard is apparently Ford's little secret and the decades long "side-show" with William and the James Delos hybrid may have been a diversion created by Ford?

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I think you are right about it being a flash back, but I don't think she was testing Bernard.  I think she was testing an Arnold replica.

I thought Bernard is the "Arnold replica".  What am I missing?

That brings up another question, Apparently no one on the planet besides Ford knew Arnold? Is he not listed in a Wikipedia-type article or who's who page on the founders and lead programmers of Westworld/ Delos, complete with pictures?  Wouldn't Delos VIP's or past associates who visit the programming center of the park recognize Bernard as an exact copy of Arnold?   Again, I'm not sure what I'm missing.

MrBill60 wrote:

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I think you are right about it being a flash back, but I don't think she was testing Bernard.  I think she was testing an Arnold replica.

I thought Bernard is the "Arnold replica".  What am I missing?

I'm sorry, I didn't state that well.  Although Bernard looks like Arnold, he is given a different name and persona -- only some of Arnold's memories which are converted to be Bernard's.  Ford kept Dolores and Bernard apart.  When they finally did meet, she thought he was Arnold but Ford corrected that and told her he was Bernard.

So, Dolores was testing an Arnold replica who would have had all of Arnold's memories, thoughts, traits, etc.  She was testing that host to see if he could pass for Arnold. -- She wasn't testing an Arnold replica to see if he could pass for Bernard.  Am I making sense? Or just causing more confusion.

MrBill60 wrote:

That brings up another question, Apparently no one on the planet besides Ford knew Arnold? Is he not listed in a Wikipedia-type article or who's who page on the founders and lead programmers of Westworld/ Delos, complete with pictures?  Wouldn't Delos VIP's or past associates who visit the programming center of the park recognize Bernard as an exact copy of Arnold?   Again, I'm not sure what I'm missing.

Arnold was scrubbed from the park's history.  Here's a relevant conversation between Ford and Bernard season one, episode three.:



BERNARD LOWE:  But ... what if we misdiagnosed the original problem?  Treated the symptom rather than the disease?  Then the disease is still out there.  Abernathy and Walter were exhibiting other aberrancies beyond memory recall of previous builds.  They were hearing voices ... uh ... talking to someone.
DR. ROBERT FORD:  A simple ... cognitive dissonance.  That's all.
BERNARD LOWE:  I-I--I'd agree ... except ... (sighs) they were talking to the same imaginary person.
DR. ROBERT FORD:  Oh, yeah?
BERNARD LOWE:  Someone named Arnold.
DR. ROBERT FORD:  Arnold.
BERNARD LOWE:  With ... due respect, sir, I'm not sure you've told me the entire truth about this situation.
DR. ROBERT FORD:  I did tell you the truth, Bernard.  What we do here is complicated.  (Ford picks up a framed photograph from his desk.)  For three years, we lived here in the park ... refining the hosts before a single guest set foot inside.  (Ford extends the photo to Bernard.)  Myself, a team of engineers, and my partner.
BERNARD LOWE:  You had a partner?  (Bernard looks at the picture.)
DR. ROBERT FORD:  Yeah.  When the legend becomes fact, you print the legend.  My business partners were more than happy to ... scrub him from the records, and I suppose I didn't discourage them.  (Bernard hands the photo back to Ford, who stares at it again.)  His name was Arnold.  (Smiles and sets the framed photo back down on his desk.)

Note to all.

I do have the first 9 episode transcripts and can post them if you want. It would probably be a few days as I would need to clean up some of the custom code which is not a big deal. Yes? No?

wow, I'm glad you have the transcripts, sandi!  

Westworld is just a confusing mess to me.  Ford may have wiped Arnold's history from the Park, but what about Arnold's associates, family, etc.?  Have they visited Westworld or seen current staff pictures?    Investigative journalist must be dead in the 22nd century or whenever the Park exists.

From the transcript above, it sounds like "Arnold" is in the Cradle or Host Mesh Network if he's speaking internally to the hosts.  Is this "Spock's Brain"?  Is this a power play between Arnold and Ford?
Is Arnold still speaking to the hosts?  I haven't heard that reference since that episode, but I'm sure Bernard will find the truth and because of the early S2 flash forward spoiler, perhaps Arnold will emerge from Bernard and complete his mission of destroying  (drowning) the hosts.

I don't know about Arnold's family and I don't recall any more mention of them. The only person that seemed to know about Arnold is the MIB and I suspect he knows of him but possibly does not know what he looked like.

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it sounds like "Arnold" is in the Cradle or Host Mesh Network if he's speaking internally to the hosts.

Interesting idea ... There have been times that Ford appeared surprised that Arnold seemed to be in contact with some of the hosts.

Just some random bits, not responses to posts --

Ford’s comment about "an old trick from an old friend" is likely a reference to Arnold, especially since that is how the simulation-of-Ford greets Bernard in the most recent episode. I’m very curious about who is going to come out of that simulation machine.

I think there’s an element of self-awareness to some of the robots besides the officially “conscious” ones. Teddy, in the most recent episode, clearly is aware that he got a reprogramming when, on the train, he tells Dolores, “I never thought I'd want to leave but I suppose you fixed that, too.”

Speaking of which, I can’t believe Dolores was so short-sighted as to kill off Tech Guy when he could be useful in the future. Did she first take his control tablet? I thought Teddy giving Tech Guy the gun and bullet was interesting – it’s a terrible choice, die by gun or by explosion, but it’s still giving him a choice. Die by your own agency or as the pawn of others (well, he’s still just a pawn but it’s still an interestingly existential problem.)

Pi-O-My wrote:

Just some random bits, not responses to posts --

. . .

Speaking of which, I can’t believe Dolores was so short-sighted as to kill off Tech Guy when he could be useful in the future. Did she first take his control tablet? I thought Teddy giving Tech Guy the gun and bullet was interesting – it’s a terrible choice, die by gun or by explosion, but it’s still giving him a choice. Die by your own agency or as the pawn of others (well, he’s still just a pawn but it’s still an interestingly existential problem.)

I was just thinking that Delores should have learned Maeve's trick an had the tech guy max out all of her levels.  I'd like to see another reunion of Maeve and Delores.  I'm not quite sure that they are on the same page. Definitely not in terms of world domination, lol.

In all fairness, Maeve is only dealing with one personality -- that of Maeve.  Dolores, however, has two personalities -- Dolores the sweet Sweetwater rancher's daughter and Wyatt, the quite possibly insane cold-hearted killer.

I have to say, tonight's episode was totally ef'd up. I like the MiB scene, but what happened after and the absurdity of some of the scenes for the benefit of the viewers were just awful.  

Take Angela for instance:

This is television. mib will be back as though it was merely a flesh wound.

I liked this ep because things finally started happening.

Sandi, glad to see you're here! To expand a bit on your comment about Dolores' split character, note that Maeve has had two roles (that we know of) that superficially seem oppositional. Though not as extreme as Dolores/Wyatt, Maeve's been both the madonna and the whore. But as a madam, Maeve’s maternal side came out in her concern for Clementine, and IIRC, she showed concern for the safety of several of the other women as well.

I thought it was a great moment when Maeve saw that her “daughter” had disobeyed her, running out of the house, and she screamed – soundlessly –because her silent voice couldn’t control the Ghost warriors. Thoughts about why Maeve can’t control the Ghost warriors? And she has to rely on her madamly charms to sway Lawrence, not the subvocal commands that worked on his men. I’m wondering if a host's degree of self-awareness has some bearing on this, and it will interesting to see how Teddy responds. Clearly, Dolores isn’t under her control, since Dolores/Wyatt was all set to shoot Maeve when Maeve wasn’t ready to give up.  (I thought it was well-written irony that Dolores chided Maeve for caring about her assigned “daughter” when Dolores herself was so concerned for her own assigned “father.” Though it did seem ludicrous to me, in a scene before that, that Charlotte had so much trouble getting out Abernathy’s core when untrained Dolores could take it out easypeasy, especially since she under an emotional burden unfelt by the humans.)

Mr. Bill, to the first 4 items in your spoiler box, yep, yep, yep, and yep. The last one, though, has a semi-plausible explanation.

FWIW:

Oh, and that big long bundle Sylvester and then Armistice have been carrying matches the one in the pilot that had rifles in it during the robbery of the Mariposa.

Another question, doesn't Delos have helicopters with IR or some means to determine host from human?  Why depend on satellites and dune buggies when you can do a Search and Rescue operation by air?  It seems that would be a lot safer.   (That's right, they weren't interested in rescue until they got Abernathy).