AFTER LOST

A place to talk about your favorite shows after Lost
 
HomeMemberlistUsergroupsRegisterLog in

Post new topic   Reply to topicShare | 
 

 Westworld

Go down 
Go to page : Previous  1, 2
AuthorMessage
Pi-O-My

avatar

Posts : 81
Join date : 2018-03-22

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:02 am

Mr. Bill, I'd agree that Delos isn't being smart in their response to the rebellion, though I think part of that is their refusal to take the threat seriously. We'll see if they improve.

I think it's ridiculous for them to not be concerned with the remaining guests since that has to be their customer base. Maybe they think that they'll just boot up as robots all the dead humans -- which assumes that they have enough info on these particular guests and that by now the tech is perfected, at least perfected enough to pass muster back home. I've been waiting for someone to say that the data in Abernathy's core will allow Delos to do just that. But that's just rationalizing on my part. TPTB should have thought that one through better and given us that intel.

Btw, I'm assuming William/MiB isn't that badly injured because he's got a (invisible to us, so far) sturdy vest under his shirt. He may want risk but he's not crazy. (Though it's possible he is crazy enough to have a DNR, Do Not Rescue, order in with the assault team, and that may be the reason why they left him behind when they rescued Maeve.)
Back to top Go down
MrBill60

avatar

Posts : 697
Join date : 2018-03-02
Age : 58
Location : Escondido, CA

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:12 am

@Pi-O-My wrote:


. . .

Btw, I'm assuming William/MiB isn't that badly injured because he's got a sturdy vest under his shirt. He may want risk but he's not crazy. (Though it's possible he is crazy enough to have a DNR, Do Not Rescue, order in with the assault team, and that may be the reason why they left him behind when they rescued Maeve.)

Pi-O-My, I didn't notice the vest, I'll have to rewatch that.  It looked like those bullet wounds were bleeding, but maybe he has some level of protection, even though that would be cheating.  ;)     I would be surprised given MiB's apparent death wish and his captivation by the realism of the park.  I don't think he even brings a cell phone into the Park.   Prior to that, the bullets were harmless, so I'm not sure that a vest was readily available to him and I didn't see him interacting directly with security. If he had one, maybe he had one stashed away in his trunk of replacement hats.
Back to top Go down
MrBill60

avatar

Posts : 697
Join date : 2018-03-02
Age : 58
Location : Escondido, CA

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:04 pm

Another thought..
Maybe MIB is a successful human/host hybrid and just doesn't know it.   Maybe Delos corp has a parallel experiment going on and William actually died and MiB was quickly switched.  That would be ironic in his later dealings with the James Delos hybrid.  Maybe his wife discovered this little secret and that her death wasn't a suicide after all.  I wonder if MiB is controlled as Bernard was with Charlotte,  possibly a failsafe to protect the experiment.    Maybe he's the first of many replacements, and that is what the secret data uploads are about, to swap out people in power with hybrids who can be controlled.   It's interesting that we've never seen him arrive or leave the park, it's like he is always there, but other guests recognize him so I think he has a presence outside of the park, it depends on when he was replaced.
Too far-fetched?

I guess what might defeat this theory is that he seems to be overlooked by Hale and the head honchos.  If he was a successful hybrid experiment, he would be on the top of their list to protect and extract. So the other option is that he's Ford's secret experiment which might explain why Ford went to the extremes of tailoring a game specifically for MiB and why MiB is compelled to undertake it. What will he find behind the door?

Back to top Go down
Pi-O-My

avatar

Posts : 81
Join date : 2018-03-22

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:38 pm

“Too far-fetched?" Mr. Bill? Remember, anything is possible in Westworld. :goof:    If MiB is a hybrid or a Robo-William, I think he’s likely to be an experiment of Ford’s, not Delos Corp., or else Charlotte would be looking for MiB as much as Abernathy. How does Emily fit in? Since she was born while William was still being played by Jimmi Simpson, it seems more likely that the transformation happened after that point in time, when he changed into Ed Harris. A Robo-MiB dealing with James Delos would be more than ironic (and cruel), it would nicely parallel Ford using a host (Dolores) to test out how good a copy Bernard was of Arnold. But this is still a big if to me.

Replacement hats!  lol    Don’t bother to rewatch for a vest, though. My comment was purely a hope of a logical explanation. There was something that looked like blood when we saw Lawrence’s POV of MiB lying on his back. And since TPTB included a shot of MiB beginning to sit up behind some kind of shelter, they would be negligent if they didn’t reveal a vest or a Ghost Dance shirt then, if that’s what saved him. We’ll find out, I can only hope, when Emily (if she’s a good tracker) or the Ghost Warriors (if they’re still in the area) show up.
Back to top Go down
Big John

avatar

Posts : 1366
Join date : 2018-03-02

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:17 pm

If MIB is a Ford eternal life experiment, or even one of his own doing, I'd say that he accomplished quite the feat in fooling his daughter. Seems unlikely but maybe.

Rather though, due to his wounds, perhaps he'll be the next experiment and become the embodiment of Westworld.
Back to top Go down
sandi

avatar

Posts : 595
Join date : 2018-05-27

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:55 pm

@MrBill60 wrote:
"Take Angela for instance"]In the midst of all the shoot-em up action, she actually had time to take a shower, do her hair and makeup, and slip into a sexy outfit just to entice one of the assault team so she could set off his grenade? WTF.  

That artsy-fartsy battle scene in the control center set to music while Bernard is in the middle of it, unscathed, and is able to shut down the system without a finger being laid on him was ridiculous.  

The "Doctor Evil" moment when Dolores stops short of the "brain operation" on Hale when her father becomes lucid and Dolores actually turns her back on her which sets up Hale's escape.    
Angela -- Mr. Bill, you're right about all of that but I'm willing to set aside my disbelief because now that the cradle is destroyed and Angela doesn't have a back-up -- she's dead and we won't see her anymore in current action.  I view her final scene as a homage to her original appearance as a welcome hostess.  I loved it.
I also don't think the grenade explosion destroyed all of the control units which were immersed in a liquid which appeared heavier than water.  So, I think it's possible that the tanks farthest from the explosion may have cushioned those units.

Bernard -- Yeah, Bernard remaining unscathed did seem unreal but remember at that time, Elsie was the only human (if she is still human) who knew Bernard was a host.  So, the human fighters wouldn't shoot at him as he was management and the hosts wouldn't attack him because they knew he was a host.

Dolores/Hale -- I agree completely!  I was so disappointed that wench made it out of there unscathed.  She needs to die -- terribly!      
@Pi-O-My wrote:
....
I thought it was a great moment when Maeve saw that her “daughter” had disobeyed her, running out of the house, and she screamed – soundlessly –because her silent voice couldn’t control the Ghost warriors. Thoughts about why Maeve can’t control the Ghost warriors? And she has to rely on her madamly charms to sway Lawrence, not the subvocal commands that worked on his men. I’m wondering if a host's degree of self-awareness has some bearing on this, and it will interesting to see how Teddy responds.
I think you're exactly right about the host's self-awareness and Maeve's inability to change the self-aware host's programming.  She tried with Lawrence and when she saw it didn't work she said something like -- you're awake.

@MrBill60 wrote:
Another thought..
Maybe MIB is a successful human/host hybrid and just doesn't know it.   ...  So the other option is that he's Ford's secret experiment which might explain why Ford went to the extremes of tailoring a game specifically for MiB and why MiB is compelled to undertake it.  What will he find behind the door?
 
I've had this thought as well.  I'm sure if he is that it's Ford's doing.

Speculation
I also think "the door" is the the door to Arnold's hideaway where he built the model home he intended to build off-world.  And I think when MIB goes through that door he will discover he's a host.

Didn't Ford through the boy, Robert, or Lawrence's daughter tell MIB that the game begins where he ended and ends where he began or something like that?

Human MIB dies (ending) and that's where Host MIB begins -- so the game begins where he ended.
Host MIB was created at Arnold's hideaway (just like Bernard).  So, when Host MIB goes through the door and finds his origin - the game ends (and it ends where host MIB began).
Back to top Go down
sandi

avatar

Posts : 595
Join date : 2018-05-27

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:16 am

What did everyone think about the secret room with multiple Bernard hosts?  

I'm leaning towards Ford using that remote facility to update Bernard's host body over the years as more human elements were introduced into the hosts' bodies.  

When Felix and Sylvester updated Maeve's host body to replace the part of her spinal column that would explode if she were to travel beyond the park's boundaries, they started with the skeleton and at the end of the process, I think they inserted her control unit into the new body (not shown).  Since they re-created her at the Mesa, they probably just incinerated her old body.  

With Ford updating Bernard secretly, I'm thinking he just stored Bernard's old bodies rather than incinerating.  It didn't appear that the remote lab had an incinerator, plus the smoke from incineration may have caused an investigation.  

Or, is there more than one Bernard running around?

Thoughts?
Back to top Go down
Big John

avatar

Posts : 1366
Join date : 2018-03-02

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:33 am

[quote="sandi"]
@MrBill60 wrote:

Speculation
I also think "the door" is the the door to Arnold's hideaway where he built the model home he intended to build off-world.  And I think when MIB goes through that door he will discover he's a host.

Didn't Ford through the boy, Robert, or Lawrence's daughter tell MIB that the game begins where he ended and ends where he began or something like that?

Human MIB dies (ending) and that's where Host MIB begins -- so the game begins where he ended.
Host MIB was created at Arnold's hideaway (just like Bernard).  So, when Host MIB goes through the door and finds his origin - the game ends (and it ends where host MIB began).

That's some excellent critical thinking right there. Don't know if it's right but I like it a lot.
Back to top Go down
sandi

avatar

Posts : 595
Join date : 2018-05-27

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:57 am

Thanks BJ. hai

My mom always said, "You think too much."  (And I always wondered how that was possible.)  But I do love to speculate.  I'm usually wrong. *grins*   But the process is too much fun to not.  More than likely, the answer is very simple - that's the way it usually happens.  I must admit, I've often thought some theories and speculations (not just mine) should have been the answer as we come up with more entertaining solutions than the writers.
Back to top Go down
Big John

avatar

Posts : 1366
Join date : 2018-03-02

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:19 am

Trippy episode. I think this is how Skynet started.
Back to top Go down
sandi

avatar

Posts : 595
Join date : 2018-05-27

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:49 am

S02E08 "Kiksuya"


Before discussing the episode itself, I would just like to take a moment and give a standing ovation to Zahn McClarnon and his brilliant performance as Akecheta.  Just like Louis Herthum as Peter Abernathy in season one, I believe this is Zahn's breakthrough performance and as an actor, his "finest hour".  I'm a fan for life.    yay


To the episode -- Little did Arnold know that the maze game he hoped would lead Dolores to the final step to consciousness, succeeded in awakening perhaps his noblest of creations, Akecheta.  I think Ford said it best ... "a flower growing in the darkness".

This episode answered something that has been plaguing me from the beginning -- the maze symbol.  It bothered me in season one when Ford was walking through Lawrence's village and saw the maze symbol carved on the table top.  He was surprised.  And that surprised me and help sow the seeds of the possibility of a continuing Arnold involvement.   Now we know that it was Akecheta keeping the maze front and center in the hope of others waking up and finding the world that is right for them.  (Nice scene between Ford and Akecheta.  Obviously Ford was plagued by the maze symbol showing up as well.)

Ford/Akecheta scene:
 

Akecheta's Ghost Nation has been collecting Guests and I'm wondering if he plans on trading them for safe passage or maybe something else?

So, in  walks Emily to rescue dear Daddy.  How did she know where he was?  And how was she able to speak Lakota?  I don't recall there being anything to indicate that she was a frequent visitor to the park.  Does anyone else?

And Dolores was right.  When leaving the Mesa, she encountered Maeve and expressed a fear that the humans would use her against them (the hosts) ... and they will.  Now they have the digitized code (from Maeve's internal history) which allows her to "command" the other hosts.  This is a problem -- a big problem.  The light at the end of the tunnel is that it doesn't work well or not at all on those hosts who have achieved consciousness and the humans don't know that.  I'm also hoping that the most intelligent entity present (Maeve) realized the humans'  intent and somehow was able to corrupt the code they were copying.

I'm also a little scared that Maeve's pact with Akecheta (for him to care for her daughter) eliminated Maeve's only reason to keep on living.  Now that she knows her daughter is safe and sound, she can allow herself to die or self-destruct. lip

And lastly ... I'm worried about Akecheta's comments when he discovered Dolores had returned and killed Ford.
Akecheta wrote:
And the Deathbringer returned. (Akecheta bends over Ford's body.)  Now it's time to find the door ... before the Deathbringer ends us all.

Based on what he said, does anyone think that the door Akecheta saw is "the door" in Ford's last narrative or just a symbolic door?  
And the part that worries me -- before the Deathbringer ends us all.  Sounds like Akecheta thinks Dolores will be the end of the sentient hosts and I'm afraid he's right.



(I think that's the Mesa during construction but I'm not sure. Or maybe, it's the door to Arnold's private sanctum? Anyone else?)


Random

  • I love that Akecheta referred to Dolores as "The Deathbringer" and Arnold as "The Creator".
  • For the very first time, I found myself liking Lee Sizemore.
  • And I want that smug, loathsome bitch, Hale, to die a horrendous death full of agony as befitting her psychopathic nature -- perhaps drawn and quartered?
Back to top Go down
MrBill60

avatar

Posts : 697
Join date : 2018-03-02
Age : 58
Location : Escondido, CA

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:57 am

I'll have more later, but I agree that it was an amazing performance by Zahn McClarnon. It was also good seeing a reunion of sorts of Zahn, Irene Bedard and Julia Jones from Longmire. The production team really did their homework since most of the episode was spoken in Lakota. A really touching episode.
Back to top Go down
Pi-O-My

avatar

Posts : 81
Join date : 2018-03-22

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:55 pm

First off, correcting my previous post -- Maeve's scream wasn't silent. Though the sound was dampened and distorted, we could hear her "Nooo!"

Sandi, you asked about the room full of Bernards. I think your point about an incinerator at that isolated location drawing attention is correct, though I'm not sure why Ford (assuming it was Ford who left them there) wouldn't just recode and reuse the discards. Maybe there's some mind/body connection, which might explain Akecheta carving the Maze into scalps, that the pattern would soak into their comprehensions. (At the Mesa, I'm not sure why some ex-hosts are burned and others put into storage when they're too glitchy to reprogram. For staff to further research?) Anyway, I think the multiples of Bernard were meant by TPTB more for the audience and to further mess with Bernard's shaky sense of self, rather than a logical solution of what to do with failed experiments.

Now that we know (thanks to the sojourn in Shogun World) all hosts are multilingual, there's no question of how Maeve's daughter (and Maeve) can understand Akecheta's talking to them. And if MiB's daughter has the same capability, she may share some of the host programming. So, clue or misdirection? Emily clearly grew up from the child we saw in flashbacks, which implies she's not fully host. And what are her plans for her father, now that she has him?

Draw and quarter Charlotte? Next up -- Medieval World!
Back to top Go down
MrBill60

avatar

Posts : 697
Join date : 2018-03-02
Age : 58
Location : Escondido, CA

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:04 pm

@sandi wrote:
S02E08 "Kiksuya"


Before discussing the episode itself, I would just like to take a moment and give a standing ovation to Zahn McClarnon and his brilliant performance as Akecheta.  Just like Louis Herthum as Peter Abernathy in season one, I believe this is Zahn's breakthrough performance and as an actor, his "finest hour".  I'm a fan for life.    yay


To the episode -- Little did Arnold know that the maze game he hoped would lead Dolores to the final step to consciousness, succeeded in awakening perhaps his noblest of creations, Akecheta.  I think Ford said it best ... "a flower growing in the darkness".

This episode answered something that has been plaguing me from the beginning -- the maze symbol.  It bothered me in season one when Ford was walking through Lawrence's village and saw the maze symbol carved on the table top.  He was surprised.  And that surprised me and help sow the seeds of the possibility of a continuing Arnold involvement.   Now we know that it was Akecheta keeping the maze front and center in the hope of others waking up and finding the world that is right for them.  (Nice scene between Ford and Akecheta.  Obviously Ford was plagued by the maze symbol showing up as well.)

This reveal was fantastic in how it relates to season 1 and explains the maze symbolism. I thought it was originally some sort of imagery from the programming that was burned onto the inside of the scalps, but damn, what an initiation - actually scalping, cutting the maze, and re-sewing the scalp back on.  How did the Ghost Warrior initiated manage to survive that procedure?

Anyway, I wish the other reveals would be so clear cut (pun intended).   Very Happy

Quote :

Ford/Akecheta scene:
 

Akecheta's Ghost Nation has been collecting Guests and I'm wondering if he plans on trading them for safe passage or maybe something else?

Even as the other hosts are going haywire, the Ghost Nation remains independent and appear to have a sort of reverence for the Guests as representations of the Other World.  That was a great scene as  Akecheta finds the abandoned Logan out in the desert and offers him a blanket.  Logan is delirious and  speaking about the door to the other world and is the beginning of Akecheta's journey.

Quote :

So, in  walks Emily to rescue dear Daddy.  How did she know where he was?  And how was she able to speak Lakota?  I don't recall there being anything to indicate that she was a frequent visitor to the park.  Does anyone else?

Stubbs recognized her and I believe indicated that she was a regular visitor when they were being held captive by the Ghost Warriors.

Quote :

And Dolores was right.  When leaving the Mesa, she encountered Maeve and expressed a fear that the humans would use her against them (the hosts) ... and they will.  Now they have the digitized code (from Maeve's internal history) which allows her to "command" the other hosts.  This is a problem -- a big problem.  The light at the end of the tunnel is that it doesn't work well or not at all on those hosts who have achieved consciousness and the humans don't know that.  I'm also hoping that the most intelligent entity present (Maeve) realized the humans'  intent and somehow was able to corrupt the code they were copying.

I'm still holding out for Felix to come to the rescue with Sylvester, begrudgingly in tow as usual, it can be no other way with Syl.  ;)

Quote :

I'm also a little scared that Maeve's pact with Akecheta (for him to care for her daughter) eliminated Maeve's only reason to keep on living.  Now that she knows her daughter is safe and sound, she can allow herself to die or self-destruct. lip

I think her goal is to be reunited and return to motherhood with her non-aging, forever child.  It kind of reminds me of Kirsten Dunst's role in Interview with a Vampire as a non-ageing vampire child.  Her mind and experiences grows, but she physically remains a child and it was unbearable for her.  If Maeve's daughter becomes fully awakened, then will she be condemned to the same fate?

Quote :

And lastly ... I'm worried about Akecheta's comments when he discovered Dolores had returned and killed Ford.
Akecheta wrote:
And the Deathbringer returned. (Akecheta bends over Ford's body.)  Now it's time to find the door ... before the Deathbringer ends us all.

Based on what he said, does anyone think that the door Akecheta saw is "the door" in Ford's last narrative or just a symbolic door?  
And the part that worries me -- before the Deathbringer ends us all.  Sounds like Akecheta thinks Dolores will be the end of the sentient hosts and I'm afraid he's right.

Based on what we see, I think the construction site might be "The Valley Beyond" and there is evidently a large door in the canyon wall so I'm betting on a literal door.  I wonder if this is where all the enlightened hosts will converge?  

Quote :



(I think that's the Mesa during construction but I'm not sure. Or maybe, it's the door to Arnold's private sanctum? Anyone else?)


Random

  • I love that Akecheta referred to Dolores as "The Deathbringer" and Arnold as "The Creator".
  • For the very first time, I found myself liking Lee Sizemore.
  • And I want that smug, loathsome bitch, Hale, to die a horrendous death full of agony as befitting her psychopathic nature -- perhaps drawn and quartered?


Sizemore is still a weasel but he showed some real heart.
Back to top Go down
MrBill60

avatar

Posts : 697
Join date : 2018-03-02
Age : 58
Location : Escondido, CA

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:18 pm

@Pi-O-My wrote:
First off, correcting my previous post -- Maeve's scream wasn't silent. Though the sound was dampened and distorted, we could hear her "Nooo!"

Sandi, you asked about the room full of Bernards. I think your point about an incinerator at that isolated location drawing attention is correct, though I'm not sure why Ford (assuming it was Ford who left them there) wouldn't just recode and reuse the discards. Maybe there's some mind/body connection, which might explain Akecheta carving the Maze into scalps, that the pattern would soak into their comprehensions. (At the Mesa, I'm not sure why some ex-hosts are burned and others put into storage when they're too glitchy to reprogram. For staff to further research?) Anyway, I think the multiples of Bernard were meant by TPTB more for the audience and to further mess with Bernard's shaky sense of self, rather than a logical solution of what to do with failed experiments.

Yeah, I don't get the point of the multiple Bernards.  Ford must have been a hoarder.

Quote :

Now that we know (thanks to the sojourn in Shogun World) all hosts are multilingual, there's no question of how Maeve's daughter (and Maeve) can understand Akecheta's talking to them. And if MiB's daughter has the same capability, she may share some of the host programming. So, clue or misdirection? Emily clearly grew up from the child we saw in flashbacks, which implies she's not fully host. And what are her plans for her father, now that she has him?

Draw and quarter Charlotte? Next up -- Medieval World!

Emily is really cold, almost robotic.  I don't think Akecheta patched MiB up, so he's pretty close to death and not even an ounce of daughterly sympathy from Emily.    Yeah, I am definitely voting for host.  I'm wondering if a wife hybrid is waiting for him on the other side of the door?  Perhaps a last opportunity for atonement?  It's too late whatever the case.  There's also a chance that MiB will meet himself on the other side of the door... his replacement, lol.
Back to top Go down
sandi

avatar

Posts : 595
Join date : 2018-05-27

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:07 pm

RE: Transcripts
@Pi-O-My wrote:
Thank you for posting all this, Sandi -- dialogue and actions, too!

You're welcome.   smile   I had them in my files and it seemed a waste not uploading them.  They can be very helpful for discussions and of course theory info.  I'm pretty sure I'll finish out season one and do the last episode, I'm not sure whether I'll do any more after that -- maybe.
@Pi-O-My wrote:
... I'm not sure why Ford (assuming it was Ford who left them there) wouldn't just recode and reuse the discards. Maybe there's some mind/body connection, which might explain Akecheta carving the Maze into scalps, that the pattern would soak into their comprehensions. (At the Mesa, I'm not sure why some ex-hosts are burned and others put into storage when they're too glitchy to reprogram. For staff to further research?)...

Besides upgrading software, they've upgraded the hardware or physical host bodies over the years.  They started out completely mechanical and evolved to being mostly human in the present day.  So, I'm thinking those Bernards represent physical upgrades since created.  And I think they place the ones they might use again in cold storage otherwise, there would be no need to keep them.

You do bring up an excellent point about the patterns in the reattached scalps.  There must be some connection otherwise it would be pointless to carve them into the scalp where no one could see them.

Mr. Bill wrote:
This reveal was fantastic in how it relates to season 1 and explains the maze symbolism. I thought it was originally some sort of imagery from the programming that was burned onto the inside of the scalps, but damn, what an initiation - actually scalping, cutting the maze, and re-sewing the scalp back on.  How did the Ghost Warrior initiated manage to survive that procedure?

Anyway, I wish the other reveals would be so clear cut (pun intended).

I wondered how the Ghost Warrior survived as well and I caught the pun, which was funny. lol

Mr. Bill wrote:
I think her goal is to be reunited and return to motherhood with her non-aging, forever child.  It kind of reminds me of Kirsten Dunst's role in Interview with a Vampire as a non-ageing vampire child.  Her mind and experiences grows, but she physically remains a child and it was unbearable for her.  If Maeve's daughter becomes fully awakened, then will she be condemned to the same fate?
Dunst/Maeve's daughter -- I've wondered the same thing and it seems to me she would eventually suffer the same fate.  However, the hosts may be able to rebuild the host body technology and just place Maeve's daughter's control unit in a newly created adult host when the time comes.

Mr. Bill wrote:
Based on what we see, I think the construction site might be "The Valley Beyond" and there is evidently a large door in the canyon wall so I'm betting on a literal door.  I wonder if this is where all the enlightened hosts will converge?


Maybe, but that means "The Valley Beyond" was created 30 years ago and I was under the impression that "The Valley Beyond" is a much more recent concept.
Back to top Go down
MrBill60

avatar

Posts : 697
Join date : 2018-03-02
Age : 58
Location : Escondido, CA

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:29 pm

S2E09

Wow, so dark and unexpected. I'll have more later ...
Back to top Go down
sandi

avatar

Posts : 595
Join date : 2018-05-27

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:56 am

S2E09

Teddy!  wah

I love Teddy so much!  I liken him to Sir Galahad -- gallant and pure.  Even Dolores/Wyatt's changes couldn't fully corrupt him.  (And we thought he drowned at Bernard's hand ...  )

The Deathbringer is all alone now.  I wonder how she'll be able to complete her mission and is it possible her mission was a suicide mission and did she know that.  I think perhaps it was and she did.

The MIB -- paranoid much?  

I'm glad we got to see the events leading to his wife's suicide (which occurred one year prior to the present).  And Ford visited William at the gala honoring him.  Ford said something about the pact they had -- Delos staying out of the park and the park staying away from Delos operation and how Delos wasn't honoring the pact.  Does anyone know exactly what Ford meant by that?  Also, it's at this point that Ford seriously begins work on the final game, IMO.

In the present day, Ford (speaking through other hosts) sparked the paranoia that the MIB is exhibiting.  I wonder if that was intentional on Ford's part?  The MIB was convinced Emily was a host and wound up killing her ... and maybe she was -- I don't know.  She did find him pretty easily and that bothered me.  We know William spent a long time searching the park 30 years ago for Dolores and came up empty until he returned to Sweetwater where she had been reinserted into her narrative loop.  And more than any guest he knows how big the park is and how difficult it would be to find someone without any extra help.  

And what about the MIB?  It's pretty obvious he suspects that he is a host and maybe he is.  32

I loved the scene where Maeve sees Ford's message and thankfully, she will now be able to do something and save herself.  (I was afraid she was on her death bed.)
Back to top Go down
sandi

avatar

Posts : 595
Join date : 2018-05-27

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:59 am


  • After this last episode I'm re-thinking control units.  I originally thought that the control unit Ford had Bernard steal was blank and was used to create a new hybrid host.  But that can't be right.  Ford has been recreating Bernard with every physical upgrade (hence the stored out-dated Bernard hosts.)  Bernard has a control unit -- as do all the other hosts.  So, Ford had easy access to blank control units.  That leads me to believe that the control unit Bernard stole was already imprinted with a someone's digital representation.  I'm wondering who that would be?

  • I also thought the super secret lab Bernard stole the unit from was an extension of the Mesa.  Now I think it was a Delos lab -- separate from the Mesa operation and unknown to those at the Mesa location.  I was having a hard time reconciling the fact that the theft and deaths of the technicians went unnoticed.  Why wasn't Stubbs informed?  I also thought the incident had to have occurred close to the gala and Ford's death (to go unreported).  But, if the lab was a secret Delos facility, then no one at the Mesa would have known about it, right?  So, it seems to me that Bernard could have stolen that unit at any time and with this week's episode -- perhaps it was stolen after Ford returned from the MIB's real world celebration a year ago.  It was at that time, IMO, that Ford decided on the final game.

  • I'm also trying to remember if there was a time the MIB might have died (in the Park) but we only saw him lose consciousness.  Because, the real MIB might have died at that point and a host MIB was the one waking up.

  • Why didn't Charlotte Hale know that Peter Abernathy would explode if he travelled beyond the Park's boundaries?
    If she did and sent him anyway, then his destination was still in the Park.  If not, then why didn't she (a high ranking board member who seems to know everything else) not know of the bomb in his vertebrae?

  • If the data being collected by Delos is only collected on the guests while they are in the park, what makes them think they are collecting a complete picture of that person?  
    There is a difference between someone making choices if there are no consequences as opposed to someone making choices when there are consequences.  

  • I'm thinking the Valley Beyond contains a world created solely for the guests' hybrid hosts.  But I'm wondering what form that would take.  Would it be a world like home or based upon the Park's data that it was collected on, would it be a recreation of the Park as we know -- perhaps with copies of some of the hosts?

  • In the Cradle, Ford told Bernard that he (Ford) wouldn't live very long in the real world.  Is the Park, the real world?

  • Ford downloaded to Bernard from the Cradle and then the Cradle was destroyed.  We don't know if any of the control units were intact.  So, there doesn't appear to be any back-ups.  So, unless Ford had another control unit somewhere other than the Cradle, then sharing Bernard's host appears to be his only presence, right?
    S01E06 -- This is from the scene where Bernard discovers Ford's host family in a secluded section of the park.
    DR. ROBERT FORD:    I told him of a holiday my family had taken once out on the seaside at Pendeen in Cornwall.  My brother and I roamed the countryside.  It's my only happy memory of my childhood.  Arnold built them as a gift.  He said that great artists always hid themselves in their work.  Of course, Arnold's versions flattered ... the originals.  I made some adjustments over the years.  Gave my father, in particular, a few of his original characteristics.

    Ford had a year to hide himself in "his work".  So, I'm wondering, how many other hosts, like Bernard, are carrying around a file (now dormant) containing Ford's digital self?
Back to top Go down
MrBill60

avatar

Posts : 697
Join date : 2018-03-02
Age : 58
Location : Escondido, CA

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:35 am

Nice to see Sela Ward, another powerhouse actor.

They must have some magic medicine in the 22nd century or whatever time this takes place. We see the med kit that Emily brought, but I can't imagine that MiB could get up that quickly after the trauma of being shot multiple times.

MiB is really gone, I have no doubt that Emily was human as were the security personnel. I'm not sure how she found him, maybe she's a great tracker, but she had his profile card. Of course it could be a duplicate that Ford gave her, if she is a hybrid. I still remember what Ford told Theresa at the plantation restaurant, he knows everything about the guests and the management and so there is a slight chance that this is all a game with host players. In Westworld anything is possible, I guess, even that MiB is a host. I think we can draw parallels between MiB's and Delores' journeys and how obsession has destroyed those closest to them. I wonder if Ford's game is all an experiment in obsessive behavior?

If they download the guest's data through the hats, how does this work in Shogun world where hats aren't usual, particularly for the women, or is this park not part of the data dump? I'm sure they have alternate ways - Sake anyone?

I'm looking forward to Hale's demise, I hope we see a confrontation between Maeve and Hale in the next episode.

I'm still not clear on this life extension program. Are they duplicating humans without their knowledge
in order to replace them, or are they offering a service? This is definitely a secretive operation so I am leaning toward the former.

Back to top Go down
sandi

avatar

Posts : 595
Join date : 2018-05-27

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:52 pm

Mr. Bill wrote:
I wonder if Ford's game is all an experiment in obsessive behavior?
I don't think so.  I think Ford's game is to the death -- so to speak.  I think the game is designed to give his hosts their best chance at independence and lives of their own choosing.  Unfortunately, the odds are with the humans and if they win, then they just need to wipe memories and roll back the hosts' programming.  

Mr. Bill wrote:
I'm looking forward to Hale's demise, I hope we see a confrontation between Maeve and Hale in the next episode.
I hope Hale crosses paths with the MIB and he thinks she's Ford.  *grins*


Mr. Bill wrote:
I'm still not clear on this life extension program. Are they duplicating humans without their knowledge
in order to replace them, or are they offering a service?
I think it's all about money and power.  They'll sell the service to those who can pay and secretly replace others so Delos will control key people who can affect areas that are beneficial to the company.
Back to top Go down
MrBill60

avatar

Posts : 697
Join date : 2018-03-02
Age : 58
Location : Escondido, CA

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:51 pm

@sandi wrote:
Mr. Bill wrote:
I wonder if Ford's game is all an experiment in obsessive behavior?
I don't think so.  I think Ford's game is to the death -- so to speak.  I think the game is designed to give his hosts their best chance at independence and lives of their own choosing.  Unfortunately, the odds are with the humans and if they win, then they just need to wipe memories and roll back the hosts' programming.

I agree, and I think Delores has some plans at the Forge in The Valley Beyond that might lock out access from the manipulation of their programming.  I think Maeve will have a part in this too with her super-powers.

Quote :
I'm also trying to remember if there was a time the MIB might have died (in the Park) but we only saw him lose consciousness. Because, the real MIB might have died at that point and a host MIB was the one waking up.

The incident with his wife's death was a year prior, but after that, he's never shown outside of the Park, it's like he's always there, so I think it's possible that he died sometime after that incident and he's a host hybrid, but I don't know what the point would be. He's displaying the same tendencies that drove his wife to commit suicide. I'm surprised that divorce never crossed her mind since she saw through him, but probably didn't realize the extent when she viewed the profile.


Last edited by MrBill60 on Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
Pi-O-My

avatar

Posts : 81
Join date : 2018-03-22

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:19 pm

Sandi, if the secret lab was not Mesa but was Delos, then wouldn't Delos have responded? Even if Stubbs & Co. weren't informed, certainly all those dead would have been on someone's radar. Meanwhile, we’ve already been alerted to the fact that hosts can find each other throughout the park. Clue or misdirection regarding Emily’s abilities? Don’t forget that MiB got distracted by seeing the card in Emily’s hand, so he never examined her arm. TPTB are doing a fandance worthy of Sally Rand about the arm of MiB himself, too. If Delos is secretly replacing powerful people like, say, wealthy philanthropists, MiB is definitely a candidate for the stealth program.

Mr. Bill, I’m not sure the women and children wear hats, and they could get blown off by wind (or don’t they have that in the park?) or some, shall we say, private activity. I thought it was more fandancing  about the specifics about hats, and could have referenced something like say, their scalps. (Current tiny microphones can be planted right on your forehead, although the wearer certainly notices them.) I think clients would be happier with the life extension aspects if they didn’t realize it required such invasive tech. And their social aspects would be more pleasant without their uninhibited proclivities in the park being included in their immortal counterparts, so the customer base likely would be much larger if they didn’t know about any snakes being necessary for their new Eden.

I’m assuming that Ford needed Bernard to sit in that set-up in The Cradle to get into Bernard’s programming. From there, Ford could access the entire host mesh network, which is how, I’ve assumed, he was able to show up at Maeve’s side. I thought it was significant that he needed Bernard to go near Maeve even if Ford didn’t need his carrier to get any closer than the locked door. When Bernard deleted his “Ford file,” he may have removed the old guy from himself, but Ford is likely still in the network.

I liked the contrast between Ford leaving his “favorite” with advice and a kiss, while MiB left his (seemingly) own child with a fatal bullet. We now have confirmation that Ford hadn’t planted into Maeve’s programming her choice to get off that train, and Teddy seems capable of overriding the programming changes Dolores installed in him.
Back to top Go down
neillt006



Posts : 74
Join date : 2018-03-02

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:07 pm

@sandi wrote:

Mr. Bill wrote:
I'm still not clear on this life extension program. Are they duplicating humans without their knowledge
in order to replace them, or are they offering a service?
I think it's all about money and power.  They'll sell the service to those who can pay and secretly replace others so Delos will control key people who can affect areas that are beneficial to the company.

If you were to replace powerful and rich "real" people with "hosts" who do not realize they are not the real thing, and if you can control those hosts, life would be good, simulated or otherwise.

N.
Back to top Go down
sandi

avatar

Posts : 595
Join date : 2018-05-27

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:11 pm

Mr. Bill wrote:
I'm surprised that divorce never crossed her mind since she saw through him, but probably didn't realize the extent when she viewed the profile.
She probably thought he wouldn't give her one and only she saw him for what he truly was.  Plus, there's  Emily.  Did you notice how he manipulated Emily?  Juliet asked William why he would have Emily over knowing how it would upset her (Juliet) in her condition?  Why would he?  I'm guessing so she (Emily) and not he would call the doctor.  After all, nice guy, philanthropist, man of the year or whatever the award was for, wouldn't -- couldn't -- be the bad guy there.

Juliet was right.  One by one, William destroyed her family -- Logan, then her dad, then Juliet and lastly Emily.

@Pi-O-My wrote:
Sandi, if the secret lab was not Mesa but was Delos, then wouldn't Delos have responded? Even if Stubbs & Co. weren't informed, certainly all those dead would have been on someone's radar.
Maybe that's why the board was making a push to oust Ford?  Maybe that's why, after all these years, it was suddenly important to steal all the code?  I'm sure Delos had their suspicions but they probably couldn't prove anything since the drone hosts did most of the killing and they killed themselves as well.

@Pi-O-My wrote:
We now have confirmation that Ford hadn’t planted into Maeve’s programming her choice to get off that train, and Teddy seems capable of overriding the programming changes Dolores installed in him.
Yes, and it appears that Bernard has finally grown a pair and either attempted or succeeded in ousting Ford from his programming because -- he wants to do things "his" way.

I thought it was interesting when Ford told Bernard that only he (Bernard) could stop management.  What do you think about that?

@neillt006 wrote:
If you were to replace powerful and rich "real" people with "hosts" who do not realize they are not the real thing, and if you can control those hosts, life would be good, simulated or otherwise.

Exactly!  And that's what I think William sold Delos on -- plus the added revenue from those "real" people who wanted to live forever and would pay for a host body to inhabit.   -- money and power

So the potential to sell to a knowing market plus infiltrate an unknowing power market was huge.
Back to top Go down
Pi-O-My

avatar

Posts : 81
Join date : 2018-03-22

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:42 pm

Neill, that sounds like what may be the “reality” for the nouveau hosts (formerly known as guests.) Sandi, it seems to me that MiB wanted to be sure Emily saw her mother so wasted. Also, I thought the reason for the sudden need to get the code out was because they knew Ford's tenure was ending and they were afraid he’d destroy everything he didn’t want Delos to have. I still don’t understand how Hale could have thought a host from the deep freeze made a sensible vehicle to ship data out on, which makes me wonder if she’s as incompetent as the Delos security, or if she had some other plan when she said “out.” Like out of Ford’s hands but somewhere still in the park.

Speaking of stuff I still don’t understand, I haven’t been able to connect the dots on some issues but maybe someone else can.
-Do we know if hosts need to breathe? No breathing means no drowning, and now that we’ve seen Hale’s plan to use a host to destroy others (ironic, given Maeve’s previous protectiveness toward Clementine), I wonder if the flood was intended, not just to block The Door, but also a (failed, obviously) attempt to cover up all those host-killed hosts. Or are those victims even hosts? The “host-on-host” violence promoted by Clementine may be on shells, or guests put into hosts. Consider that the Ghost Nation still has those hostages, and the tech (in this season’s episode 1) said that the lightbulb thingies in the dead hosts were all “virgin” –there must be a connection there. Maeve couldn’t control the hosts who were already awake, and the Ghost Nation folks all are, so Clementine’s commands won’t affect them.

-What is the ruined building that Teddy and Dolores are in during their confrontation? I think it’s near the Valley, so I figure that’s how Teddy’s body ended up in the flood. I don’t think we ever saw analogs to Dolores or Teddy in ShogunWorld, but I’ll admit I’m looking forward to Marsden coming back in a pith helmet as RajWorld’s Lord Teddy.

-Ford told Bernard that Ford’s consciousness would deteriorate on leaving the park, so it’s unlikely that Ford’s tech was advanced enough to build a robo-MiB who could go home, even if Ford left out the explosive device those security guys just reminded us of (scanning MiB’s spine but not Emily’s – idiots!) Since we know that the James Delos-bot was still in his cell when Bernard and Elsie arrived, I don’t think Delos had perfected hosts who could leave the park yet either. (MiB narrated that he'd been aware for some time of his "stain" so I can't see his becoming MiB-bot during this most recent visit to the park, either. Unless that awareness of darkness is an unremoveable part of his personality. If these guests become the people they were in the park, they won't need Clementine's new programming to turn on each other.)

And I just want to point out that in the hotel bar during MiB’s big gala, Ford told MiB to stop working on his “side project” and gave him a “profile” card that looks a lot like the keycard that opens a hotel room Door. So I think Ford already had a head start on creating his “last” game.
Back to top Go down
MrBill60

avatar

Posts : 697
Join date : 2018-03-02
Age : 58
Location : Escondido, CA

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:45 pm

It will be amazing if they show the flooding of the desert valley.  I hope we see the flood in action. I wonder if there's a donkey wheel to sink the island?   :goof:

Quote :
And I just want to point out that in the hotel bar during MiB’s big gala, Ford told MiB to stop working on his “side project” and gave him a “profile” card that looks a lot like the keycard that opens a hotel room Door. So I think Ford already had a head start on creating his “last” game.

Interesting. I wonder what type of device William's wife was viewing his profile on?  Is it a standard type of future media player and data card or is it something proprietary developed by Delos Corp to view the guests secret profiles? Maybe all guests receive an "edited" data card as memorabilia,  like the pictures taken by a professional photographer during a visit to Disneyland or a Hornblower Bay cruise.
Back to top Go down
sandi

avatar

Posts : 595
Join date : 2018-05-27

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:58 am

The finale was awesome! I'm going to have to watch again before I post a lot on it. I do have a couple of questions -- if anyone can help me out on the answers ...

At the end, Teddy is shown in the digital world (the one Akecheta led the hosts). How did he get there?

I'm so happy, Dolores put an end to Hale, but I'm disappointed that her body will be seen again in the future. We know that Dolores was inhabiting Host Hale's body. Then she makes it to the real world and we now know, Dolores is back in a "Dolores" body. So, who is now occupying Hale's host body?

We saw Dolores as host Hale leave the park with a purse containing 5 control units or "pearls" as tptb are now calling them. Who do you think the 5 others are going to turn out to be? Was one of them Bernard?

What did you think about the MIB ending?
Back to top Go down
MrBill60

avatar

Posts : 697
Join date : 2018-03-02
Age : 58
Location : Escondido, CA

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:41 am

I originally missed the post credit  scene until I read some reviews and went back to check it out.   That was trippy and I have no idea when that scene takes place. Looking at the state of the Forge, it's long after the events of the season.  I love the idea of MiB existing in a repeating nightmare, reliving  the events that leads him to the Forge, and that the real Emily (I hope) is now in charge of Delos and running the experiment.  Karmic justice at its best.

I'm pretty sure we'll see Maeve again and that one of the control units smuggle out is hers, but I do have a lot of questions as well.



Last edited by MrBill60 on Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:28 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
sandi

avatar

Posts : 595
Join date : 2018-05-27

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:12 am

I like that idea as well, Mr. Bill. One of the things that bothers me is the statement that "it was not a simulation".

We were shown multiple "worlds" or for Delos within the system. So, I think that would qualify as a simulation, right? So, if that isn't what the MIB experiences -- then what is?
Back to top Go down
sandi

avatar

Posts : 595
Join date : 2018-05-27

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:19 pm

Does anyone else think Stubbs is a host?

  • He told Host Hale that "the old man himself" hired him a "long - long time ago. Does he look like he could have been hired a long - long time ago?
  • He knew Host Hale was a Host -- and I think he might have thought she was Dolores but I'm not sure about that.
  • And there was that weird occurrence in season 1 when Dolores was "off-loop" and he ordered a check to see if she was with a guest or not. (And we saw that happening when she was with William in Lawrence's home town.)
Back to top Go down
Big John

avatar

Posts : 1366
Join date : 2018-03-02

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:09 pm

Finale went on too long and seemed a bit full of itself. I could have done without the last few scenes. For me, the shot of the sea plane that Dolores was boating off to was the perfect end point.

I liked that just about everyone, people and hosts, died but some have the potential to be resurrected. Good set up for a third season: Dolores Takes Manhattan.
Back to top Go down
MrBill60

avatar

Posts : 697
Join date : 2018-03-02
Age : 58
Location : Escondido, CA

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:27 pm

@sandi wrote:
Does anyone else think Stubbs is a host?


  • He told Host Hale that "the old man himself" hired him a "long - long time ago.  Does he look like he could have been hired a long - long time ago?
  • He knew Host Hale was a Host -- and I think he might have thought she was Dolores but I'm not sure about that.
  • And there was that weird occurrence in season 1 when Dolores was "off-loop" and he ordered a check to see if she was with a guest or not.  (And we saw that happening when she was with William in Lawrence's home town.)

 


Yes, I agree that Stubbs is a Host.  I'll have to watch that "off-loop" scene from S1 again.  I remember there was a lot of flipping back and forth between present and 30 years prior, but I assumed that was the present timeline when Delores is retracing her past, but it would be interesting to see if there are any other clues if whether Stubbs was around in  the 30 years prior timeline. They must have a high turnover of staff not to notice that this guy doesn't age and I'm surprised no one noticed the payroll discrepancies, but I guess Ford could deal with the payroll through some programming magic.
Back to top Go down
Pi-O-My

avatar

Posts : 81
Join date : 2018-03-22

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:38 pm

@MrBill60 wrote:
I wonder if there's a donkey wheel to sink the island?   :goof:

Interesting. I wonder what type of device William's wife was viewing his profile on?  Is it a standard type of future media player and data card or is it something proprietary developed by Delos Corp to view the guests secret profiles? Maybe all guests receive an "edited" data card as memorabilia,  like the pictures taken by a professional photographer during a visit to Disneyland or a Hornblower Bay cruise.

Since Juliet didn't like the park, I don't think she'd have a special park reader close at hand. I love your idea of an edited data card memento. And you called it, with Dolores donkey wheeling the Shimmer World out of the hands of anyone searching for its secret coordinates.

Stubbs all but admitted to Hale/Dolores that he was a host himself, and that once she left the park it was no longer his responsibility to protect her, or, for that matter, inhibit her bad actions. He clearly knew she wasn’t plain old Hale. We know that hosts can see a level of reality that guests don’t, like the Door to the Shimmer that Felix and Sylvester said they couldn’t sense. My bets are on one of the “pearls” being alterna Dolores, the one we saw in her former body, and one would be Abernathy. Maybe Bernard built the alterna Dolores in that 3D printer in his/Arnold’s house. Since it’s child-size, I think he may be constructed a Charlie for himself. Both of these guesses depend on the tech being further advanced than it was back when Ford and James Delos were unable to keep their minds intact in the real world. Or maybe Bernard isn’t in the real world but in “RealWorld” Park.

How Teddy got into the Shimmer is a mystery to me, since he shot himself in the head. I thought a headshot made hosts unrecoverable.

As to the stinger with Emily and MiB, with him not just repeating his loop but also still in terrible physical condition. I’m not sure Emily is fulfilling her promise to Akecheta that she would make MiB suffer. Since I think it’s clear she’s a host, it could be Ford in control of Emily making her now-host (and newly aware he’s a host) father go on and on without free will. Also, I wonder if the abandoned look of the server area means that an apocalypse, perhaps host created, has caused human/guest civilization to crumble. (Or maybe the guests just did it themselves – that doctor who decided to up Maeve’s pain level before putting her down was a terrible example of humanity.)
Back to top Go down
Pi-O-My

avatar

Posts : 81
Join date : 2018-03-22

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:13 pm

Double post here because I rewatched the ending and saw the quick-cut answer to how Teddy ended up in the Shimmer. His headshot didn’t penetrate Teddy’s pearl – when Dolores took it out of him, the bullet was smashed but up against it, not into it, so she pocketed both the pearl and the smashed bullet. While Dolores/Hale is heading for her ride out, we see Dolores/Hale (narrating, “the best parts of who we were”) in the Cradle holding the Teddy pearl. I suspect she was thinking of taking it along in her handbag and then deciding that, since Good Teddy won out over Bad Teddy, he was better off elsewhere. As she moves away from the table, we see the pearl is in one of those claw stands, followed by a close up of Teddy and then the (surprising) reveal, the long shot of him in the field.

Also, a couple of points that call back to earlier episodes. The player piano motif showed up again in the finale, with the pages in all those old-fashioned looking code books Dolores reads in the Cradle library marked just like the piano rolls. And when Bernard is able to dump Ford (better: Fordness) from his consciousness, he makes the leap to the top of the bicameral mind pyramid, realizing that the voice in his head is his own, not the voice of a Ford/God.

Aside from it being a good dramatic tool, any thoughts about why Logan was the personification of the System? His relationship with James Delos might be a clue but I don’t see how.
Back to top Go down
MrBill60

avatar

Posts : 697
Join date : 2018-03-02
Age : 58
Location : Escondido, CA

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:27 pm

@Pi-O-My wrote:

Aside from it being a good dramatic tool, any thoughts about why Logan was the personification of the System? His relationship with James Delos might be a clue but I don’t see how.

Well, I have some thoughts on why Logan is the personification of "the System" and represented as an interactive librarian/programmer and I also have a prediction for next season.  

First, I can see no reason for there to be a virtual host and library unless it was meant for interaction with the Hosts and I believe it's intended for one Host in particular.   The reason Logan was chosen is that he is the person that set Akecheta on his path to find the door to the other world.  It's a big "If", but what if "the System" is available from within "The Matrix" and Akecheta is able to connect to it, then who better to serve as his  teacher than the person who first set him on his journey?   I believe Akecheta will be shown the true nature of his virtual world and learn about the real world.  This may also inspire the other Hosts in the Valley to question their reality.

There is another component to this - Maeve. I believe she'll be repaired by "the Cats" and still have the desire to reconnect with her daughter in the real world once she discovers that "The Valley Beyond" is just an illusion.   Remember that Akecheta and Maeve had a connection during his story to the daughter, so perhaps Atecheka, working from within the Matrix and Maeve, working from the outside,  will be able to find a way to release the hosts into the real world, perhaps even with the help of Delores, or at least her host printers.    

Too far fetched, too "Matrixy"?
Back to top Go down
sandi

avatar

Posts : 595
Join date : 2018-05-27

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:36 am

@Pi-O-My wrote:
Aside from it being a good dramatic tool, any thoughts about why Logan was the personification of the System? His relationship with James Delos might be a clue but I don’t see how.

Since James Delos was the initial test subject with The Forge being built around his memories, I believe the system chose Logan as his embodiment because Delos claimed Logan was his primary drive.


@Pi-O-My wrote:
As to the stinger with Emily and MiB, with him not just repeating his loop but also still in terrible physical condition. I’m not sure Emily is fulfilling her promise to Akecheta that she would make MiB suffer. Since I think it’s clear she’s a host, it could be Ford in control of Emily making her now-host (and newly aware he’s a host) father go on and on without free will.


I like this answer.  It's in keeping with something I've been wondering about.

You know how tptb like to skip around and mix-up the sequence of events.  Well, I think some of the action we see was from the original action and some of the action we see is from the MIB's looping narrative.  For example, we see the MIB enter the Forge and meet Emily, discovering he's a host, but we also see MIB, severely wounded, laying on the beach, waiting to be transported back to the real world.  Both can't be true of the same narrative.

Dolores --- So, Dolores in host Hale -- leaves for the real world with 5 pearls (control units) in her purse.  We next see, Dolores in host Dolores' body and testing Bernard for fidelity. Host Hale arrives.  So we have three hosts in the real world.  Since Dolores' pearl was in host Hale's body when they left, her pearl is not one of the five.    

My first question about this is ...
Who transferred Dolores' pearl to her newly created Dolores' host body?

It appears Dolores can create host bodies, can she also create new pearls (control units)?

Seems to me that one of the five pearls Dolores brought with her, belonged to Bernard.  And thanks to Pi-O-My, we know Dolores transferred Teddy to AKECHETA's new world, so none of the 4 remaining pearls is Teddy's.  

It is possible that one of the pearls is Peter Abernathy.  Dolores did have a soft spot for him and could most likely extract the extra data from him and then restore what's left as her father.  (If that's the case, did the extra data include the code for all the hosts?  If it did, and she can create a pearl, she could recreate any host she wanted.)

So, what other hosts did Dolores bring with her besides Bernard?  And who is inhabiting host Hale's body now?
Back to top Go down
sandi

avatar

Posts : 595
Join date : 2018-05-27

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:16 am

System Logan tells us that James Delos' defining moment was Logan's last ditch appeal and Delos turned his back on him. System Logan also told us that regardless of the different paths he gave James Delos, he always wound up back at that defining moment.

So, what do you think was the MIB's defining moment?
Back to top Go down
MrBill60

avatar

Posts : 697
Join date : 2018-03-02
Age : 58
Location : Escondido, CA

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:48 am

@sandi wrote:
System Logan tells us that James Delos' defining moment was Logan's last ditch appeal and Delos turned his back on him.  System Logan also told us that regardless of the different paths he gave James Delos, he always wound up back at that defining moment.

So, what do you think was the MIB's defining moment?

This is a tough one, there are a few defining moments in order of magnitude, imo.  

Murdering his daughter.  She was a casualty of his obsession over the park and Ford's game and ultimately may be his defining moment.

The death of his wife and his actions in the Park that lead up to it.  

Being "spurned" by Delores (actually spurned is the wrong word - his realization that Delores was a host on a programmed loop and could not reciprocate his feelings) was another moment since he apparently couldn't let go and sought revenge not only against her but Ford and the Park itself, which I think amplified his true nature that led up to his wife's death and ultimately to the murder of his daughter.  I think it set the whole obsession thing in motion.
Back to top Go down
sandi

avatar

Posts : 595
Join date : 2018-05-27

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:17 am

@MrBill60 wrote:

I'm pretty sure we'll see Maeve again and that one of the control units smuggle out is hers, but I do have a lot of questions as well.
I don't think Maeve's pearl was smuggled out.  Dolores was no where near her and didn't have access to it, unlike Bernard and Teddy -- and her father, Peter Abernathy.


@Pi-O-My wrote:
Double post here because I rewatched the ending and saw the quick-cut answer to how Teddy ended up in the Shimmer. His headshot didn’t penetrate Teddy’s pearl – when Dolores took it out of him, the bullet was smashed but up against it, not into it, so she pocketed both the pearl and the smashed bullet. While Dolores/Hale is heading for her ride out, we see Dolores/Hale (narrating, “the best parts of who we were”) in the Cradle holding the Teddy pearl. I suspect she was thinking of taking it along in her handbag and then deciding that, since Good Teddy won out over Bad Teddy, he was better off elsewhere. As she moves away from the table, we see the pearl is in one of those claw stands, followed by a close up of Teddy and then the (surprising) reveal, the long shot of him in the field.

I think Teddy is different from the other hosts who entered the new digital world through the door or maybe not.  

Remember, once the hosts crossed over, their physical bodies (along with their control units) fell off the cliff.

Dolores placed Teddy's pearl in some kind of upload device (that claw) and transferred him to the new digital world from the Forge.

But what really happened?  

Don't the pearls contain the digital codes which make up the individual hosts?  Were the hosts uploaded or transferred?  I believe they were uploaded, which means the original digital file is still present in their pearls which are physically in the park.  (When I upload a file, it doesn't erase the original file on my hard drive.  It copies that file to the new location.)

If I'm right, then one of the pearls in Dolores' possession is probably Teddy's.  Dolores can have her cake and eat it too -- Teddy is free in the digital world and quite possibly accompanied Dolores to the real world.

(And let's not forget, Ford had a pearl somewhere.  When he downloaded himself into Bernard, he downloaded a copy of his digital self.  If his pearl was in the cradle, it might have been destroyed or it might have survived the explosion, depending upon its location in one of the tanks.  It's also possible, Ford's pearl was elsewhere.)


@MrBill60 wrote:
. Remember that Akecheta and Maeve had a connection during his story to the daughter, so perhaps Atecheka, working from within the Matrix and Maeve, working from the outside,  will be able to find a way to release the hosts into the real world, perhaps even with the help of Delores, or at least her host printers.    

Too far fetched, too "Matrixy"?

I wonder if the connection will remain intact over a great deal of space?  How powerful is Maeve's wifi?


@MrBill60 wrote:
@sandi wrote:
System Logan tells us that James Delos' defining moment was Logan's last ditch appeal and Delos turned his back on him.  System Logan also told us that regardless of the different paths he gave James Delos, he always wound up back at that defining moment.

So, what do you think was the MIB's defining moment?

This is a tough one, there are a few defining moments in order of magnitude, imo.  

Murdering his daughter.  She was a casualty of his obsession over the park and Ford's game and ultimately may be his defining moment.

The death of his wife and his actions in the Park that lead up to it.  

Being "spurned" by Delores (actually spurned is the wrong word - his realization that Delores was a host on a programmed loop and could not reciprocate his feelings) was another moment since he apparently couldn't let go and sought revenge not only against her but Ford and the Park itself, which I think amplified his true nature that led up to his wife's death and ultimately to the murder of his daughter.  I think it set the whole obsession thing in motion.

I agree and disagree a little.

In order of magnitude ...

William's "realization that Dolores was a host on a programmed loop" and wasn't real, imo was life-changing.  It changed everything for him and set him on that dark path.  (TPTB may have shown us this symbolically as well.  That realization scene -- William looks down and then when he looks up -- he's the MIB.)

The death of his wife -- I agree with but I don't think the "and" are the events in the park that led up to it.  I think the "and" is his response to her suicide and last words -- murdering Maeve and her daughter.  (This set him on his "maze" path.)

Killing his daughter (I'm still on the fence whether the Emily we were shown was a host or not.)  I don't think this action had a great impact on him.  I think his reaction is probably very much like his reaction to killing Maeve's daughter -- a child.  

I'm wondering how long the MIB's loop is?  I think season one and season two happened within 35 to 40 days which would be within the limit of the human hybrid host before he started to reject his reality and degrade.
Back to top Go down
sandi

avatar

Posts : 595
Join date : 2018-05-27

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:33 am

@Pi-O-My wrote:

Stubbs all but admitted to Hale/Dolores that he was a host himself, and that once she left the park it was no longer his responsibility to protect her, or, for that matter, inhibit her bad actions. He clearly knew she wasn’t plain old Hale. We know that hosts can see a level of reality that guests don’t, like the Door to the Shimmer that Felix and Sylvester said they couldn’t sense.

Yes, and we also know that an "awake" host knows the difference between a human and a host.

At one point, Felix started freaking out -- wondering if he was a host -- Maeve reassured him that he was human.  Maeve also recognized Bernard as a host prior to Bernard's realization or maybe it was his re-realization.

I plan on re-watching from the beginning as I intend to work on a timeline.  I'm going to pay particular attention to the "awake" hosts' demeanor towards the MIB.  I wonder if there are any tell-tale signs that they either knew he was human or was a host?
Back to top Go down
Big John

avatar

Posts : 1366
Join date : 2018-03-02

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:09 am

@sandi wrote:
Yes, and we also know that an "awake" host knows the difference between a human and a host.

I plan on re-watching from the beginning as I intend to work on a timeline.  I'm going to pay particular attention to the "awake" hosts' demeanor towards the MIB.  I wonder if there are any tell-tale signs that they either knew he was human or was a host?

If awake hosts know the difference, then MIB would know the difference if he is indeed a host. Is MIB a host? Is he an awake host? I ask because I'm too much of a casual viewer of Westworld to pick up on this stuff, or too daft.
Back to top Go down
sandi

avatar

Posts : 595
Join date : 2018-05-27

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:11 am

An awake host knows the nature of his or her reality. In other words, they know they are a different species, not human but not just host. They can make choices that are not in their programming and can have thoughts of their own.

If the MIB was a host during the action in seasons one and two, he did not know it. As far as he was concerned he was human -- just like Bernard thought he (himself) was human.

Back to top Go down
Big John

avatar

Posts : 1366
Join date : 2018-03-02

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:35 pm

Someday I hope to achieve 'awake human' status.
Back to top Go down
MrBill60

avatar

Posts : 697
Join date : 2018-03-02
Age : 58
Location : Escondido, CA

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:56 pm

@sandi wrote:


William's "realization that Dolores was a host on a programmed loop" and wasn't real, imo was life-changing.  It changed everything for him and set him on that dark path.  (TPTB may have shown us this symbolically as well.  That realization scene -- William looks down and then when he looks up -- he's the MIB.)

The death of his wife -- I agree with but I don't think the "and" are the events in the park that led up to it.  I think the "and" is his response to her suicide and last words -- murdering Maeve and her daughter.  (This set him on his "maze" path.)


I don't remember the specific scenes in the Profile video that the wife watched, but I believe one showed him raping Delores, so imo, he was on a dark path prior to her suicide, and then went full bonkers afterward with Maeve and daughter.

Quote :

Killing his daughter (I'm still on the fence whether the Emily we were shown was a host or not.)  I don't think this action had a great impact on him.  I think his reaction is probably very much like his reaction to killing Maeve's daughter -- a child.  

I have no idea, but I'm guessing she was real. MIB even considered blowing his brains out for a few minutes .. yes only for a few minutes. smh. In his mind there was some doubt, but he's so far gone and obsessed that I guess it's just one more brick.

I'm not sure if the Emily we see after the end credits is human or a replicant but it sort of parallels Delores testing Bernard, but also parallels William testing Delos. I guess it also depends how far in the future that scene takes place, because she hasn't really aged (if she is human).   The timelines are just so damn confusing,  and then take in consideration future plastic surgery using host technology, then no one ages,  lol. So , I hope the real Emily survived and she's the new CEO and conducting fidelity tests and torturing dear ole' dad as payback.
Back to top Go down
sandi

avatar

Posts : 595
Join date : 2018-05-27

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:04 am

Mr. Bill wrote:
The timelines are just so damn confusing,

Yes, they are. I do plan on working on some kind of timeline during Westworld's hiatus and when I do, I'll start a thread on it to track and to get input from everyone else.

Thought -- We saw Dolores as Host Hale change the destination of the data (which included the hosts in the digital world). Since the data was all digital, the receiving end would have to be a computer somewhere, right? If so, where do you think she sent it?

Back to top Go down
sandi

avatar

Posts : 595
Join date : 2018-05-27

PostSubject: Re: Westworld   Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:36 am

Also, we know that the original hosts didn't have control units containing "pearls" as evidenced by Ford's "boy Robert's" exposure of his insides when his face came apart.  So, that was one of the upgrades which occurred over the years.  

The pearl technology came about and somehow, tptb transferred the hosts' digital programming and imprinted them on "virgin" pearls.  We know the active hosts had back-up pearls in the cradle.  (I can't remember -- did the hosts have a daily back-up?  Were the pearls in the cradle backed up periodically?  If so, then the active hosts had to be able to back-up to their pearls in the cradle.  Or was that something tptb did every time a host came in for repair?)  At any rate the duplicate pearls in the cradle were most likely created by copying the digital info from a host's pearl to a virgin pearl.  If that's true, and I think it is, then one could transfer a digital host to a virgin pearl regardless of its origin.  Meaning, I think that Dolores (who knows the location of the digital hosts) could copy an individual digital file to a virgin pearl and recreate a host -- a clone host if you will.  Each would be independent of the other and with their new experiences (if allowed to remember) would possibly develop into a somewhat different personality given the choices they make.

Mr. Bill, you mentioned the hosts in the virtual world eventually reconnecting with the hosts in the park, I think that's entirely possible with the above mentioned technology.
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Westworld   

Back to top Go down
 
Westworld
Back to top 
Page 2 of 2Go to page : Previous  1, 2

Permissions in this forum:You can reply to topics in this forum
AFTER LOST :: TV and Movies :: TV-
Post new topic   Reply to topicJump to: